1994 DX Coupe - Swap or Dump?

[Wreckless Hype]

Hey gang, I've been away from the Honda scene for a while after I sold my 96 GSR CX hatch. I ended up with a new WRX and 140k really hard miles later, it is no more. So I bought a 94 DX coupe as a "beater" until I could get into something else, but that something else may be a little ways away. Looking for advice or maybe just confirmation on details regarding a swap or if it's not worth the trouble.

Car is a 1994 DX Coupe, 5 speed with stock D15B7, all original I'm sure. The body has no real damage, it's getting the notorious rear fender rot, it's bubbling up so I would want to get that fixed right. The hood doesn't close right because it was in a collision before I bought it, the fenders line up with the body, but the bumper, headlights and hood look "off", I would want to get a new radiator support cut in. That's essentially it for the body. The strut mounts look fine, I've had the carpet up to put in speakers (used to Subaru rumble driving, so a nice system will have to do ) and there is no floor rot, nothing looks damage or twisted. The engine bay looks all original as the corrosion seems about right for a car that is 19 years old. I think the radiator support was just moved back into place.

SO! The bad:
Engine is dying, 197k miles, head gasket is shot to hell, the seals are leaking (oil in with the plugs mostly), the oil is leaking into the cooling system (The radiator has brownish marshmallow crap stuck in it and the heater core is clogged with the stuff)
Heat / AC doesn't work
No power anything
Drum brakes have likely not been changed in over 100k
It idles rough (revs high then drops, repeat. Going to pull the IACV off to clean it for now)
The interior is a mess (dash is busted up, carpet is stained to hell, seats are starting to show wear holes)
Left door creaks and doesn't seem to close right, like it hangs down a half inch when open (k, maybe that was collision damage, idk)
Suspension is shot to hell.
SRS light stuck on (from collision I guess) so I just unplugged it (EFs don't have airbags, eff it)

The good news is, regardless, it drives very well, whenever I need it to. I have been driving it about 50-60 miles a day for work since I bought it (April of 2011) and have moved to Connecticut with it, from New Jersey, and back to New Jersey again.

It has failed inspection for idle hydrocarbons, twice. All of the normal maintenance was done; oil, filter, intake filter, plugs, wires, cap and rotor. When I bought the car, the exhaust was in 3 pieces but still attached to the car. I replaced the catalytic converter and everything behind it. Still failed; I know the issue lies in the engine bay. There is no CEL.

I'm wondering a good route to go with the car. I'd like a fix to get it through inspection, I'm sure there's some more things I need to look at to make it happen. If I need to replace the head gasket though (I can do it myself), I would rather replace the motor. If it's not worth it, I need to replace the car.

I've read a lot of information on the F20B motor, how it's incredibly underrated, and there is a LOT of misinformation floating around about it. It seems an F20B swap would need H22 mounts, OBD1 H22 intake manifold, chipped P28 or 82 ECU, and a manual version of the engine for the best all around experience. I had a B18C1 and enjoyed it, but I drove a turbo charged vehicle after and enjoyed that also. I know the F20B bottom end is constructed well, has great OOTB power, torque, and compression so I can easily go either route when I get there. Thoughts?

Also, I realize if I keep the car and do a swap, it will need brakes, all around, knuckles, lines, and MC. Will need all new suspension, exhaust for the hybrid setup, rims and tires for larger brakes, and likely a new interior I can piece together at a later date (interior no necessary for driveability).

Can I get some feedback / thoughts / criticism? If needed, I can put up pictures of said sh!tbox

TL;DR version: EVERYTHING is wrong with the car, is an F20B swap sensible for an EG coupe, support your answer with valid reasons. Also, any information on fixing high idle hydrocarbons on a stock VERY old D15B7. If not worth fixing, who wants it, for how much?

 

[xxBLOOD88SHOTxx]

My first question is what is this car going to be used for? JUST a beater, weekend warrior, 50/50? Your first sentence is you bought it for a beater but you seem to have bigger plans for it.

 

[cgpEJ6]

I would just keep it simple and put in a d-series, either a y8 or z6.

The F20 is going to be more work, more money, less parts available and not that great of an engine. It's like swapping an H22 without getting the benefit of having an H22.

 

[Wreckless Hype]

My first question is what is this car going to be used for? JUST a beater, weekend warrior, 50/50? Your first sentence is you bought it for a beater but you seem to have bigger plans for it.

I need the car to work for now, if i can get it to pass inspection so I can continue to drive it, I'll leave it as is, D15 and all. I would like it to be a 50/50 though, as my old GSR hatch was. I would like to still get a something else down the road, year maybe, in which case it will be a weekend warrior.

The F20 is going to be more work, more money, less parts available and not that great of an engine. It's like swapping an H22 without getting the benefit of having an H22.

Most all of the Honda motors around that time are same basic idea, work maintaining is same as any other, fitting parts and finding I know may be a pain in the scrotum, money up front is less and I guess I could see it adding up over time.

The H22 / H23 option I feel is great and a wonderful option for boosting, I'm just not totally sure on it yet as it depends on what my choice in ride is for a daily driver in the near future. Essentially from what I read, 90% of the H series motor parts bolt onto the F20s, etc. The torque is slightly less, power the same-ish, The F20 hits it's power later in the RPM range, but I like the sporty gears which make up for it and LSD option. Weights are negligible, displacement is obviously less, I like what I'm reading as far as the sleeving in the F20B.

I gathered from reading around that the F and H are great for turbos, I'm pretty stuck on that. I see the A SOHC can get to outflowing a DOHC B, but they seem to run all over the B-motor heads. This may not be totally true, but it seems to be the popular consensus in the threads and projects I've read.

I won't be road racing the motor like Mugen intended it for. I know, as I had mentioned there is a lot of missing information on the F series motors, but they seem to be very aggressive contenders with the H series motors. I'm finding things like bottom ends are very very strong on these motors, which is nice to know. If I were to go a turbo route, I'm like to hit around a 300 mark, I think 350-370 is pushing it, and from reading around, it's possible, and very little, if any bottom end was touched to make it happen.

 

[xxBLOOD88SHOTxx]

If it was a pure beater I would find a low mileage d15/16 and drop it in and enjoy the MPG. If you plan on not keeping it after a year, I would just do a simple turbo LS, it can handle 300hp. H/F swap is more involved, seems the transmissions dont hold up as well as b series do, and if you want to build the bottom end you have to go with aftermarket sleeves to fun forged pistons. Sure it wont have as much torque, but will still be fun. What are you planning on getting in a year?

 

[Wreckless Hype]

Pure beater I would likely follow your reasoning, I enjoy the 360 miles per tank, it's wonderful. More though I enjoy down shifting to overtake traffic on the highway when I need to rather than down shifting to make it up the hill at 15mph under the speed limit (d15 with blown headgasket FTL).

My daily will likely be another Subaru as I enjoy the ride very much and in my area, it fares perfectly. I've just grown very biased to them and enjoy working on them and everything I get out of driving it. I don't need pure adrenaline all the time, or I'd get an Evo. I like power when I want it and also a nice ride when I just want to A to B. They don't make huge power without tons of money, but I don't need it. If I get a slightly higher paying job, I may go 2012 300 SRT-8, but that's a whole different story.

I've looked at B18B1, F20B, H22A, and H23A. They're all comparable I know, as you get bigger, you get more numbers, some lack here and there where the others pick up, etc. I liked the idea of the F the more I looked into it and I like the idea of being different, it's not unique, but someone will look at it and say, "oh, no s**t, an F", whatever. If I go swap it, I'm not going to be modding it until I get a DD, so I'm not worried about time or difficulty at that point. I don't want to get something because it's easier, or get something because it's cheaper, I don't mind a challenge and I don't mind spending a little more if I get a little more. However, reasons like, the SiR trans is crap and will likely sh!t to bed with 300whp vs the LS stock trans, then I can see that as valid. If it's an issue of upgrading the clutch and flywheel, no problem; I've driven a stage 2 unsprung clutch without issues. This is why I'm asking you guys, and I appreciate all the feedback I'm getting.

 

[xxBLOOD88SHOTxx]

No I meant the h series trans seem to have more issues/break more s**t than any other honda trans. Thats why everyone started doing h2b, besides the shorter ratios.

 

[emerican]

personally i wouldnt go with an h or f swap especially in a car with that many problems youd be doing a swap that costs more than most others into a car that needs a shitload of money spent on it in general to make everything right.
also have you checked the emmison laws where you live depending on how strict they are may dictate what swap you can do.
some places have limits and restricts on swapping different motors into cars they didnt orginally come in or offer in that car/model.
personally i would throw a y8 in it and if you want more hp boost it, but i wouldnt never spend the type of money your talking about just to do that swap then buy another car in a year.

 

[Wreckless Hype]

Pulled the IACV off yesterday, probably shouldn't look the way it did, but no head gasket, what's one to expect. Got at cleaning it out, soaked it with some gasoline and Q-tipped it out / blew out the mesh insert. Topped off the coolant and oil and started it up for a bit. Cold start, idled and revved for about 30 minutes it sat fine, idled fine, revving and letting it off, the revs dropped to normal with no sound of it almost cutting out or surging.

Pulled the plugs and wires out. Plugs look normal, burn wise, except a light white powdering crust on them. Plug 2 from the left has fresh oil on it, plug 3 from the left has some baked on oil. I know the seals are rough on this car. Going to get some NGK copper plugs and wires tomorrow, when it's not a holiday, change the oil and find a garage that will pass it.

personally i wouldnt go with an h or f swap especially in a car with that many problems youd be doing a swap that costs more than most others into a car that needs a s***load of money spent on it in general to make everything right.

The idea of a swap in this car, is that the things wrong with it, need to be changed during a swap.
- If a radiator support and rear fender work are done prior (have a body guy), then just about everything else is replaced during a swap.
- The suspension needs to be replaced anyway, I'm just dragging my feet on fixing anything besides the motor right now.
- The brakes on the car now would not support a decent swap, at least I wouldn't trust them to.
- Heat does not work due to the clogs from the oil running through the cooling lines. I've had it apart, blew the blockage out and the heat worked all last winter. This year I did not
- Creaking door (need to check the mounts) is not considered a big deal to me to fix.

Swaps are expensive, we do them for fun and a challenge. I don't expect to get money out of it. People put money into rebuilding cars way older and in worse shape than this. I'm not attacking your response, but I'm not sure we're on the same page. The main question I had at first was swap or dump. With your reasoning on NOT going F or H, it sounds like "dump" to me and I'm curious why you say that. I'm 50/50 on the fence with both options now and am looking for any supported advise.

 

[Wreckless Hype]

Yesterday:
Fixed blinker issue by popping out the wires in the harnesses and swapping them around so they work.
Ran new hose for squirters, they work.
Popped in new NGK Platinum plugs and wires.
Chipped off metal shavings from crank mount on the passenger door (Handle broke, was using vice grips)
Put glove box back in.
Started tinkering with hood latch cable (has been just sitting on the floor, cable seems WAY too long)

Today:
Pulled A/C out, wiring, metal hoses, cut belt, left tensioner and mount to frame.
Pulled hood latch out, ran tons of PB Blaster through it to loosen debris, still sticks when you pull the cable, guess I'll swap it out at some point.


Car seems to run steady, the rpms no longer dip as they used to. Need to change the oil and they try to get it through inspection again.

 

[CHILD]

If it's only between F20 or nothing, then i wouldn't bother with it.

 

[Wreckless Hype]

My reasons for picking an F20 swap is it has great power out of the box, huge revving capabilities, very strong bottom end, very decent transmission, price is competitive compared to other 2.0-2.2L swaps and has very nice boost capabilities.

Can I hear something similar and supporting reasons? F20 for some reason is not getting a lot of support. Just would like to hear what someone else would do.

 

[CHILD]

The torque isn't much over a jdm gsr or itr motor, the power is at the very top of the rev range, the transmissions are slow compared to b16's, and to take advantage of the potential it does have you'd need to combine it with h and b parts. Im not saying it's a bad motor, just that in my opinion, the cost to get a worthwhile setup out of it isn't worth it. Id prefer a h2b over the f, more torque, same power, fast revs and the same about of work to drop it in. To me the only value in the F is the rareness, not so much the output.

Most don't prefer it just because the cost to make it as fast as other options is larger than just choosing a different platform to start with.

 

[CHILD]

My reasons for picking an F20 swap is it has great power out of the box, huge revving capabilities, very strong bottom end, very decent transmission, price is competitive compared to other 2.0-2.2L swaps and has very nice boost capabilities.

Can I hear something similar and supporting reasons? F20 for some reason is not getting a lot of support. Just would like to hear what someone else would do.

Not sure about the "huge revving capabilities" you're speaking of since it revs to like 7400 stock but stops making power before that so there is no point in still spinning the engine. Personally i'd go with a accord or crv k24 and boost that since it puts out much more with a completely stock internal engine. The final costs would be justified with a very high output.

 

[Wreckless Hype]

I think the F motors are more of a contender and have more capabilities out of the box than most people read into. Yea there's going to be better, but there's always better. It's a really cheap swap, big numbers for a race inspired engine and the money, but sure, it needs help in some areas. F20 will run until almost 8000rpm before it comes down and the H22 seems to fall shortly after 7k. Sure, power kicks in later, but shorter gear ratios make it 6 of one, half dozen of the other. The F series is pretty damn cheap ($1350 for long block, ECU, LSD tranny etc from guys down the street), H22 around $1700, K24 looks around $2000, and B18C JDM longblock around $3800(?) just for comparison sake.

Turbo applications are going to depend on sleeves where the F gleams. People apparently put down around 400whp without real issues where I read the F surpassing that. Honestly, 400 would be my absolute highest, but I wouldn't mind 350-375 range and don't want issues. Granite, if I'm doing any head work, might as well get the block sleeved, but it's not going to be a serious race motor with huge applications.

JDM B18C wouldn't be bad for power, torque, boost capabilities, etc but is going to run me far more up front just to get the motor. GSR is going to need some bottom end work for boosting, since this is a likely route for me. B16 I'm not even sure what I would be looking at, I think I want something bigger to begin with.

 

[xxBLOOD88SHOTxx]

I think the F motors are more of a contender and have more capabilities out of the box than most people read into. Yea there's going to be better, but there's always better. It's a really cheap swap, big numbers for a race inspired engine and the money, but sure, it needs help in some areas. F20 will run until almost 8000rpm before it comes down and the H22 seems to fall shortly after 7k. Sure, power kicks in later, but shorter gear ratios make it 6 of one, half dozen of the other. The F series is pretty damn cheap ($1350 for long block, ECU, LSD tranny etc from guys down the street), H22 around $1700, K24 looks around $2000, and B18C JDM longblock around $3800(?) just for comparison sake.

Turbo applications are going to depend on sleeves where the F gleams. People apparently put down around 400whp without real issues where I read the F surpassing that. Honestly, 400 would be my absolute highest, but I wouldn't mind 350-375 range and don't want issues. Granite, if I'm doing any head work, might as well get the block sleeved, but it's not going to be a serious race motor with huge applications.

JDM B18C wouldn't be bad for power, torque, boost capabilities, etc but is going to run me far more up front just to get the motor. GSR is going to need some bottom end work for boosting, since this is a likely route for me. B16 I'm not even sure what I would be looking at, I think I want something bigger to begin with.

You seem to have your mind made up.

Keep us posted on the build

 

[Wreckless Hype]

You seem to have your mind made up.

I started with the idea and put it on the table but it seems to be shot down left and right. I'm attempting to make points as to why I chose this motor and hoping I can get reasonable points towards something else. The other motors I've heard so far really are H22 and possibly a K24 or B18.

The car is currently sitting in my driveway with the hood, bumper, drivers side headlight all off as I play with the hood latch and cable, and tomorrow I'm likely to pull the drivers side door off to find out why it sags. Point of the story is, there's no sense of urgency to get a build going, I'd rather see it in decent running shape. When I get something picked out, I'll likely compile a buttload of research on supporting mods and look for some general feedback on that, but that's a bit later on down the road.

Most inexpensive swaps w/ some noticeable gains (bone stock) will be the F20B, then the H22A (JDM or USDM versions), then K swaps, K20A or K24A or a hybrid of both. Is that statement invalid? I know there's going to be some bias, etc. I'm looking at stock numbers, prices, and parts to make it go. Whether I go F or H, it's going to need H parts to go in. If I go F, I keep the F tranny, if I got H or B, I get the B tranny, K keeps K tranny. To say the costs to get an F in and running is high compared to the rest I think is not true, or negligible. The H will hold some good numbers as I slap some parts on it, it's the most direct contender from a stock standpoint with minor bolt ons. Would anyone disagree?

From most F20B vs H22 sites:
The F20B manual version also utilized stronger cams, intake and throttle body from the H22 type S. The difference between f20b manual (200 hp) and auto (180 hp) is cams, intake, throttle body and the gearbox for manual come with t2t4.

F20B:
Specifications
Accord SiR wagon, SiR-T F20B 97-01 2.0 L
Valve train: four-cylinder, DOHC VTEC, 16-valve
Bore: 85.0 mm
Stroke: 88.0 mm
Displacement: 1997 cc
Torque: 145 lb·ft (197 N·m) @ 5500 rpm
Horsepower: 197 hp (147 kW) @ 7000 rpm
Red line: 7400 rpm
Compression: 11.0:1
Fuel control: OBD-2

H22A:
Displacement: 2157 cc
Valve Configuration: DOHC, 16 valves, VTEC
Bore: 87mm/3.425
Stroke: 90.7mm/3.570
Power: 200 PS (147 kW; 197 hp) @ 6,800 rpm
Torque: 161 lb·ft (218 N·m) @ 5,500 rpm
Redline: 7200 rpm
Compression ratio: 10.6-11.0:1 (Japan)

My information on sleeves for the F20 was incorrect and I apologize for mentioning it. (Came in the S2000 version)

Numbers are better for the H22, price is not really all that much higher. F20B seems to have a stronger build by a bit and will maintain power better, will require H22 parts to go in.

 

[AnimeKid]

If it was a pure beater I would find a low mileage d15/16 and drop it in and enjoy the MPG. If you plan on not keeping it after a year, I would just do a simple turbo LS, it can handle 300hp. H/F swap is more involved, seems the transmissions dont hold up as well as b series do, and if you want to build the bottom end you have to go with aftermarket sleeves to fun forged pistons. Sure it wont have as much torque, but will still be fun. What are you planning on getting in a year?

Gas mileage i have no clue what that is in my d16. Haven't seen good gas mileage in a while and have no clue why.

 

[CHILD]

big numbers for a race inspired engine

F20 will run until almost 8000rpm before it comes down and the H22 seems to fall shortly after 7k. Sure, power kicks in later, but shorter gear ratios

The F series is pretty damn cheap ($1350 for long block, ECU, LSD tranny etc from guys down the street), H22 around $1700, K24 looks around $2000, and B18C JDM longblock around $3800(?) just for comparison sake.

Turbo applications are going to depend on sleeves where the F gleams. People apparently put down around 400whp without real issues where I read the F surpassing that. Honestly, 400 would be my absolute highest, but I wouldn't mind 350-375 range and don't want issues.

JDM B18C wouldn't be bad for power, torque, boost capabilities, etc but is going to run me far more up front just to get the motor. GSR is going to need some bottom end work for boosting, since this is a likely route for me.
B16 I'm not even sure what I would be looking at, I think I want something bigger to begin with.

Let's see....The F20B from the accord is not a race inspired engine...the F20C and F22C (from the S2000) is a race inspired engine built alongside the K series.
A F20B will not make power up to 8000RPM, it starts falling on it's face after 7000RPM (where it reaches it's maximum output of 200 BHP) and the gear ratios in the F20B and H22A are IDENTICAL aka slower than DOHC B series transmissions and much slower than K's.
The K series motors I mentioned for easy boost are the cheap K24's which are usually had for less than a $1000. Typically 500-800. Don't be fooled by the modest 160bhp and 166tq figures. They handle boost better than any other honda motor in stock form. Tons of 400-500whp completely stock internal turbo K24's are running around.
The F20B again does not shine with its sleeves. A F20C (S2000 once again) does. A F20C has been swapped into a civic chassis, but it's an extremely elaborate swap and usually means converting to RWD or using a F2K conversion.
A B16 actually has the most solid build for boost with the thickest cylinder walls, it just lacks in stroke and it's high compression ratio isn't desirable.

Most inexpensive swaps w/ some noticeable gains (bone stock) will be the F20B, then the H22A (JDM or USDM versions), then K swaps, K20A or K24A or a hybrid of both. Is that statement invalid?

I'm looking at stock numbers, prices, and parts to make it go. To say the costs to get an F in and running is high compared to the rest I think is not true, or negligible. The H will hold some good numbers as I slap some parts on it, it's the most direct contender from a stock standpoint with minor bolt ons. Would anyone disagree?

My information on sleeves for the F20 was incorrect and I apologize for mentioning it. (Came in the S2000 version)

Numbers are better for the H22, price is not really all that much higher. F20B seems to have a stronger build by a bit and will maintain power better, will require H22 parts to go in.

The F20B swap is going to require everything that a H22 swap would, plus some of H series bits here and there. Cost wise, they are the same, but the H22 has a higher BHP and TQ output stock vs stock. K series is more expensive than a H swap even with a thrifty build but the output in stock vs stock, and built vs built is much higher than a H or F20B. So (IMO) it justifies the cost.
A F20B is not built stronger than a H22. The H22 lacks in its FRM cylinder walls, but besides that, it's better all the way around than a F20B.

Im not discouraging you from a F20B swap, but you came looking for opinions and input and I just threw in my Like i said before, besides the rare factor and being different with a F20B there's basically no reason to swap one in over the H22.

 

[Wreckless Hype]

Let's see....The F20B from the accord is not a race inspired engine...the F20C and F22C (from the S2000) is a race inspired engine built alongside the K series.

Yep, correct, I was misinformed.

A F20B will not make power up to 8000RPM, it starts falling on it's face after 7000RPM (where it reaches it's maximum output of 200 BHP)

Every dyno I've seen on these motors shows them run to around 185hp and fall off around 7500rpms. But I'm not going to argue, Honda motors are the some of the highest revving motors around.

and the gear ratios in the F20B and H22A are IDENTICAL aka slower than DOHC B series transmissions and much slower than K's.

Correct, kinda. I was misinformed again, my mistake. And the T2T4 transmission has a taller 5th gear that the M2T4, if we are comparing JDM LSD based transmissions.

The K series motors I mentioned for easy boost are the cheap K24's which are usually had for less than a $1000. Typically 500-800. Don't be fooled by the modest 160bhp and 166tq figures. They handle boost better than any other honda motor in stock form. Tons of 400-500whp completely stock internal turbo K24's are running around.

None that I've found under $1600, but I don't have a list of suppliers. I left the Honda game when K swaps were going into these things.

The F20B again does not shine with its sleeves. A F20C (S2000 once again) does. A F20C has been swapped into a civic chassis, but it's an extremely elaborate swap and usually means converting to RWD or using a F2K conversion.

Correct, as I mentioned in a previous post. And no way in hell will I attempt to stuff a RWD conversion in a Civic.

A B16 actually has the most solid build for boost with the thickest cylinder walls, it just lacks in stroke and it's high compression ratio isn't desirable.

Wouldn't the H22A be a more suitable motor to boost on a stock bottom end? And if you're going to swap out pistons in the B16, you could likely just sleeve the H22 for the same price or less?

The F20B swap is going to require everything that a H22 swap would, plus some of H series bits here and there. Cost wise, they are the same, but the H22 has a higher BHP and TQ output stock vs stock.

Let's just make sure we are talking about the same exact engines here. Assuming the H22A is a CL1 or BB6 version and the F20B is the CF4, 5, 9, CL3 version. Yes it has about 20 hp and lb/ft more.

K series is more expensive than a H swap even with a thrifty build but the output in stock vs stock, and built vs built is much higher than a H or F20B. So (IMO) it justifies the cost.

Being out of the Honda game when the Ks blew up, I really didn't even consider them as an option, not being ignorant. I simply don't have the information on them, so I'll check them out.

A F20B is not built stronger than a H22. The H22 lacks in its FRM cylinder walls, but besides that, it's better all the way around than a F20B.

Yep, as mention in an above post, I was misinformed, my bad.

Im not discouraging you from a F20B swap, but you came looking for opinions and input and I just threw in my Like i said before, besides the rare factor and being different with a F20B there's basically no reason to swap one in over the H22.

Exactly what I was looking for. : And some of the first words of the post was that there is a lot of misinformation going around. Because a lot of research is based on what other people post, it's hard to decipher some things when they are so vague. So if I read F20 FRM sleeves a hundred times when being compared to the H22A, ones mind would assume it's the F20B, my bad.

I appreciate the input on K swaps, I will look into them. They look a little more tricky to fit than a Civic with a B / H / F swap and no A/C, but eh.