1991 civic-strange timing problem

[rjdaaa]

I have a 1991 civic 1.5 liter DX with about 168k; I recently replaced the engine with an engine from Japan (before the quake), it was a perfect fit, correct 1988-1991 engine. The engine runs well but to time the engine correctly to the timing marks, I had to rotate my distributor clockwise so far that the 3 tabs with bolt holes on the distributor holding it to the head, did not line up with the 3 threaded mounting holes on the head.To remedy this, I made a bracket between one mounting hole and a tab, and used large washers to hold the distributor down in this position on tabs with bolts in the other two mounting holes. As specified for timing, I also timed the engine with a connecting jumper wire in place on the connector under the glovebox which is used to read codes from the computer. The timing belt is correct on cam and crank sprockets and the crank pulley with the timing marks is identical to the one on my old engine. I tried to run the engine at first with the distributor bolted up normally but I think the timing was over 40 degrees advanced and the car did not run well this way. If anyone has run into this problem before I would sure like to know how it could be solved. Thanks.

 

[31dev31]

You probably have a non-vtec distributor on a vtec motor, but you didn't specify which motors you had and replaced with. We need more information on that.

And wrong section.

 

[2NRSTV]

Would it work to rotate the plug wires? Like putting on plug wire in the next on over and doing that until all of them have moved over one? Also, try taking the distributor off and rotating the input shaft 180 degrees, then putting it back on. The notch on it is offset, but it can be installed 180 degrees off.

 

[rjdaaa]

THanks for the suggestions, I did try the 180 degree rotation re the input shaft tab, but no luck.What is the difference between a vtec and the old 1.5, maybe I have a vtec?

 

[RonJ]

You have not answered the question about what engine you replaced and what engine you installed. This is important to figure out whether you are using the wrong distributor and/or ECU.

And the connector that must be jumped to set the ignition timing is in the left rear engine compartment not behind the glove box. And you also don't need to jump any connector to read CEL codes from an OBD0 ECU, which is stock for your car.

Also, would a moderator please move this thread to an appropriate tech forum?

 

[rjdaaa]

Sorry, wasn't clear.The motor was a stock 15B 1.5 liter and the replacement engine was a 88-91 15B
No vtec engines here.The ECU is the stock 1991 1500 DX and the distributor is the stock one.
If the connector is in the left rear engine compartment, could you describe it a little better so I could find it.The manual says the connector for 88 and 89 are as you describe in the engine compartment, but I have read codes using the connector below the glovebox on this 91 when the exhaust gas sensor went out.Thanks for the help here.
Please describe the process for reading CEL codes from an OBDO ECU.

 

[RonJ]

There's no need to jump any connector to pull codes from an OBD0 ECU. Just turn the key to ON(II).

You may need to PM a moderator to have you thread moved to a tech forum.

 

[rjdaaa]

Thanks for the diagrams, i did ask a moderator to move the thread to an appropriate tech forum.

 

[rjdaaa]

Well I did drive on the freeway for about 10 minutes and got a code 4 crank angle sensor and power drops off.I have a Haynes book so it said to test resistance on the dual port connectors two ways(b to c and d to e), which I did and got 460 and 440 for resistance which was ok as the book said 200-550 ohms was ok.However the book did say that continuity to ground for each separate connector should exist.I presume that means if I use a continuity light and probe each of the 4 connectors separately the light should go on if one end is already grounded to the distributor body and the probe touches a connector.Anyway, if the Haynes book is correct maybe this is my problem,I need a new distributor, as when I did this test on both my distributors, I did not get the light to go on on any connector.The car still runs good around town, only throws the code on the freeway after a while, and is timed with a light to the red firing mark with the distributor cranked over clockwise as described in my first post.
Any thoughts here, once I clear the code it doesn't come back again until I go on the freeway for a while. I also changed the ignitor and tested the catalytic converter by hooking up a pressure gauge to the exhaust sensor hole and the pressure gauge did not go over 1 lb. while freeway driving (before I read the codes I thought the cat was partially plugged, as the rear muffler broke internally and was plugging a little,replaced the muffler).
Thanks for any further help here, is the Haynes book right?

 

[jlicrx]

the ignition timing service connector on the 88-89 is under the hood just behind the windshield washer bottle - on the 90-91, the connector is under the dash on the passenger side - the connector has 2 wires, one brown and one green with white stripe

 

[RonJ]

on the 90-91, the connector is under the dash on the passenger side - the connector has 2 wires, one brown and one green with white stripe

^This contradicts the 91 Civic service manual, which is where the top diagram in post #7 was taken from.

 

[red viper]

good luck let me know

 

[jlicrx]

^This contradicts the 91 Civic service manual, which is where the top diagram in post #7 was taken from.

having set the timing on 90-91 models many dozens of times, i can tell you for sure it is under the dash

this is also from the 91 USDM Factory Service Manual:

 

[RonJ]

having set the timing on 90-91 models many dozens of times, i can tell you for sure it is under the dash

this is also from the 91 USDM Factory Service Manual:

Very interesting. I'm using the same manual, and it has contradictory information in it -- those same two pages you posted as well as the page I posted (pg 23-58). Apparently, Honda made an error and forgot to update pg 23-58 for the 91 Civic manual and mistakenly used the page from the 88-89 Civic manual. Thanks for clearing up this issue.

 

[jlicrx]

Apparently, Honda made an error and forgot to update pg 23-58 for the 91 Civic manual and mistakenly used the page from the 88-89 Civic manual. Thanks for clearing up this issue.

i believe the picture on 23-58 was changed from the 88 manual - the text wasn't - the picture is of the underdash connector

this is the 88 manual and actual 88 location

 

[RonJ]

i believe the picture on 23-58 was changed from the 88 manual - the text wasn't - the picture is of the underdash connector

this is the 88 manual and actual 88 location

I guess it's 20 years too late to text request a correction by Honda.

 

[rjdaaa]

Well today I tested the wiring harness by disconnecting the ECU and checking resistance of the TDC and crank angle sensors in the distributor, was around 390 so was in specifications, also checked 4 pin connectors and no continuity which is correct.I am checking with someone as to if the problem is due to the japanese head/cam being different than the USA head cam.It says PM3-7 on the head and the serial number is D15B 1700926 on the block, I don't know if that could identify the year of the engine.Just to recap, it runs fine around town but after after 5-10 minutes on the freeway, throws a code 4 crank angle sensor and loses power so you have to limp off the freeway.

 

[rjdaaa]

Update here-the head,cam and crank timing with belt and belt (106 teeth) are right, there is no play in cam sprocket and cam mounting, all stock. The problem is that the car when timed correctly with a timing light on the red mark, needs to have the distributor cranked clockwise past the mounting tabs just a bit, If I look in the distributor with car stopped and the crank pointer on the red fire mark on crank pulley,the prong for firing number 1 cylinder in the distributor is still about 1/4 inch before the pickup in the distributor.I have tested the stock distributor and a replacement distributor and both need to be cranked past their mounts to time correctly so the car is firing before the prong passes exactly under the pickup sensor. The car will run fine all day unless I go on the freeway and then after about 5 minutes it throws a code 4,crank angle sensor and goes in a limp mode, usually when trying to keep speed up to 65.I assume the clockwise cranked distributor is causing the code, could it be the computer, I don't know what to try next?
Has anyone seen this before?

 

[nimrod465]

I have the same problem, but mine does not throw a code on the interstate. I rebuilt my engine, and after I got it together, to get it in time, I had to cut the ears on my dizzy. it runs fine, but I know it's not right, and I don't get as good of gas mileage... let me know if you figure this out!