Weird cold start issue.

Trekk

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I have a 98 lx, that someone did a manifold swap on (manifold doesn't have an IACV) d15 maybe?, idk all what they did, but it runs. The problem I have is cold starts. The car fires up fine, runs smooth for maybe 5-10 seconds, then the idle dumps down really low, the car sputters and bucks for the next 20 seconds or so, then everything goes back to normal and the car will drive fine all day.

When cold you can just let the car idle, it wont stall, but the rpms will get really low, so low idk how it doesn't stall. Or you can try to drive it, but when you try that, the car just losses all power almost like its turned off, if you stay on the peddle it will almost like, pop pop, then buck forward at full power for a split second, and go back to popping and sputtering.

The main problem here is the car has to be cold, as in sitting for 3 hours or so, and the problem only last for 30sec to 1min when it happens, if it happens (happens more often then not though). Which makes testing a b***h. The only code it has is a cat code.. The past owner removed that.. The cap was pretty dirty (cleaned the carbon tracking) and the post are kind of burnt up, the rotor is pretty shitty, plugs IDK how old, wires are super long but test OK. I actually put another set of injectors in I had to see if that was the issue. Doesn't appear to have a thermostat (just picked one up), only has 1 O2, TB was cleaned, it has the IAC that is on the bottom of the TB, it's clean and moves. However I don't want to think its any of that stuff since the car drives perfect after its made it past that cold start operation.

I don't really know where to go from here, mostly since its such a limited window for the problem, and such a long wait between windows. The car makes good power, once you get on it, I drive it hard. With a real wideban on it, its pretty spot on even for open loop. I found a few really old post before posting this where a few people had a problem some what close. 1-2 of them say the ECT sensor was the problem, but most every post went unanswered besides check plugs, clean the IAC ect type stuff. All of them claimed to do every basic thing under the sun, cap/rotor/wires/plugs/air filter ect.

So if anyone has any ideas..
Thanks
 

btiller11

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I have a similar issue though on Cold start instead of dropping mine jumps.... It will steady at 3 grand n then slowly work its way down until its up to operating temp. Mine im pretty sure is due to a tunning issue... Its a 98 ek with a b20, and an integra comp so i think the person before me tuned ot enough to run.... Whatever is wrong with yours could be due to tunning as well... Id start there
 


Szady

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First off, is the ECU stock? If so...replace all the tune up items with good, new ones. Cap, rotor, plugs, wires, PCV valve, etc. Just because they LOOK good, doesnt mean they're are.

You said there's no IACV on the back of the intake manifold? All D15's have the IACV on the manifold, not the TB. Is your setup a side mount throttle body, or vertical mounted throttle body? If it's vertical, then you have the correct intake manifold, as y7's are the only Honda manifold to be designed like that (why...idk...they're useless).

Has the ignition timing been set properly with a timing light? What about mechanical timing (cam timing)? All these play factor...
 

Trekk

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I don't think it's any of the tune up crap. The car drives great outside of the start up. Yesterday I unplugged the one O2 still on the car and so far I have 5 perfect start ups. I hope that was it, but ill have to keep trying every few hours to see. If that's it I don't know if its a screwed up sensor, the correct sensor (cant read the numbers on it) or the guy pluged #1 into #2 or vice versa.
 


RonJ

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I don't think it's any of the tune up crap. The car drives great outside of the start up. Yesterday I unplugged the O2's and so far I have 5 perfect start ups. I hope that was it, but ill have to keep trying every few hours to see.
Almost surely just a coincidence^

The ECU completely ignores inputs from the O2 sensor until the engine is fully warmed up.
 

Szady

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I don't think it's any of the tune up crap. The car drives great outside of the start up. Yesterday I unplugged the O2's and so far I have 5 perfect start ups. I hope that was it, but ill have to keep trying every few hours to see.
Unless your ECU is chipped, have fun burning through gas from the ECU dumping in more fuel to make up for the fact it has no idea what the A/F's are...

Again...brings me back to the questions... Is the ECU chipped, or stock?

Seeming that it has 'perfect start ups" without any O2 sensors, tells you something, no?
 

RonJ

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I don't think it's any of the tune up crap. The car drives great outside of the start up.
You've ruled out ignition system components as being the culprit(s) but have no well thought out reason to do so. You should also check the ignition timing.

Afterwards, if the problem persists, give serious consideration to bleeding the cooling system and testing the ECT sensor and TPS.
 

Trekk

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Ecu is stock and burning up gas, wideban shows the car in stoichio while crusing. I average about 26mpg city, and I drive like an old lady. $30 in my civic takes me the same distance my V8 takes me for $80.
 

RonJ

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Ecu is stock and burning up gas, wideban shows the car in stoichio while crusing. I average about 26mpg city, and I drive like an old lady. $30 in my civic takes me the same distance my V8 takes me for $80.
Stock 98 Civic LX ECU + wideband sensor? How can that work?
 

Szady

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Ecu is stock and burning up gas, wideban shows the car in stoichio while crusing. I average about 26mpg city, and I drive like an old lady. $30 in my civic takes me the same distance my V8 takes me for $80.
So, let me get this straight...

STOCK ecu. NO o2 sensors. Running at an A/F of 14.7 while driving?

:bs:

Stock 98 Civic LX ECU + wideband sensor? How can that work?
Easy. Install a 3rd o2 bung in the exhaust somewhere, and insert wideband o2. Just because it's stock, doesnt mean it CANT run an aftermarket wideband...
 

RonJ

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So, let me get this straight...

STOCK ecu. NO o2 sensors. Running at an A/F of 14.7 while driving?

:bs:
Where does he state that he's running without O2 sensors? He's running a primary O2 sensor. He just unplugged the one O2 sensor as a (flawed) diagnostic test to see if the cold start problem would be eliminated.
 

Szady

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Where does he state that he's running without O2 sensors? He's running a primary O2 sensor. He just unplugged the one O2 sensor as a (flawed) diagnostic test to see if the cold start problem would be eliminated.
I don't think it's any of the tune up crap. The car drives great outside of the start up. Yesterday I unplugged the one O2 still on the car and so far I have 5 perfect start ups. I hope that was it, but ill have to keep trying every few hours to see. If that's it I don't know if its a screwed up sensor, the correct sensor (cant read the numbers on it) or the guy pluged #1 into #2 or vice versa.
From that line, I get that he unplugged the ONE left O2 sensor, that is still on the car. Leaving zero O2 sensors...

Unless I interpreted it wrong...
 

RonJ

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From that line, I get that he unplugged the ONE left O2 sensor, that is still on the car. Leaving zero O2 sensors...

Unless I interpreted it wrong...
Yes^

He was temporarily unplugging the O2 sensor during cold starts to see if the problem was eliminated. His test, however, is rendered useless as the ECU ignores O2 sensor inputs when the engine is cold.
 

Trekk

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Well I don't know about a flawed diag test. I in fact pm'd you a while back asking about the cold start up operations and feed back that takes place. You never responded.


I don't like to type out novels with my thumb over a phone. Or include all the boring details of things that should be checked before hand. Ill try since its lunch time. fuel pressure, cooling system, fuse, tps leak down , compression, spark, timing all in spec, ect, only code is for a cat I don't even have. Haven't tested the o2 map. I know the o2 shouldn't be considered as part of a Preprogramed open loop start up process. However so far it's the only thing that's made any change.
 

RonJ

Banned
Well I don't know about a flawed diag test. I in fact pm'd you a while back asking about the cold start up operations and feed back that takes place. You never responded.
I don't respond to tech questions by PM. See message in my signature. Why is your O2 sensor unplug test with the engine cold not flawed?

Haven't tested the o2 map. I know the o2 shouldn't be considered as part of a Preprogramed open loop start up process. However so far it's the only thing that's made any change.
While you seem to acknowledge that the O2 sensor unplug test is meaningless when the engine is cold or the ECU is in open loop, you still believe that the change is real and will be reproducible? Please explain the theory behind your reasoning. And please don't abandon logic and impose any magic in your answer.=)

You've ruled out ignition system components as being the culprit(s) but have no well thought out reason to do so. You should also check the ignition timing.

Afterwards, if the problem persists, give serious consideration to bleeding the cooling system and testing the ECT sensor and TPS.
fuel pressure, cooling system, fuse, tps leak down , compression, spark, timing all in spec, ect,
Post the details of these^ tests.

And why are you so resistant to doing a basic ignition system tune up? The components sound old and could be the cause of the problem.
 

Szady

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He's looking for a 'magic' solution to his problem. He has no idea what it actually IS, but he know's what it's NOT. He doesn't want our advice, so....I'm out of this thread. Unsubscribed.
 

Trekk

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While you seem to acknowledge that the O2 sensor unplug test is meaningless when the engine is cold or the ECU is in open loop, you still believe that the change is real and will be reproducible? Please explain the theory behind your reasoning. And please don't abandon logic and impose any magic in your answer.=) .
Well while I could sit here and fight with you about how I've been a master tech for many different brands over the years and have a very good grasp on automotive theory. I can however just show you vids of with it plugged in, and with it unplugged.

Videos might not work yet as I just uploaded them.

o2' plugged in
[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS_LHRf3AoM"][/YOUTUBE]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS_LHRf3AoM

o2 removed
[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPNw760dT_w"][/YOUTUBE]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPNw760dT_w

If it doesn't matter, why has the issue disappeared? This is the 10th cold start in a row, with them unplugged, and no stumbling issue. With it plugged it in the 2 years of having the car, it never went 10 starts in a row w/o issue.


Post the details of these^ tests.
Again as a tech, I'm sure your wallet was hurting for many years paying down all the tools. With every tester set (IE fuel pressure, radiator pressure, ect.) averaging around $500 why would I not use them or lie that I have...

And why are you so resistant to doing a basic ignition system tune up? The components sound old and could be the cause of the problem.
Because we call that throwing parts at a car.
Lets say I blow $200 for a cap, rotor, wires, plugs, fuel filter, air filter ect. I fire up the car and it still does it. Then what? Do I consider that a better ruling out part failure then just unplugging a part that might be suspect?
 

RonJ

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If it doesn't matter, why has the issue disappeared? This is the 10th cold start in a row, with them unplugged, and no stumbling issue. With it plugged it in the 2 years of having the car, it never went 10 starts in a row w/o issue.
So please provide a logical explanation for what you are observing based on your advanced understanding of the system? Interpret the results. The ECU is/should be ignoring any O2 sensor input, right?

With every tester set (IE fuel pressure, radiator pressure, ect.) averaging around $500 why would I not use them or lie that I have...
This is a tech post, right? I don't know about you but I believe little that is said in technical forums unless the test results are provided. When it comes to diagnosis, my mind lives in the state of Missouri - The Show Me state.

Because we call that throwing parts at a car.
For ignition system components, I call it basic car maintenance given their poor condition/age you allude to.
 

Trekk

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Anyways just to update this, I got a new primary O2 in the mail a couple days ago. Can't beat Rockautos price of $31 shipped for a Bosch O2. I cant even get it that low from a parts store with my dealer discount. The car has run great ever since.

So anyways just because theory says the ECM should ignore the O2 at cold start. It doesn't mean that it does if the part is bad or for all I know the wrong one.
 

RonJ

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So anyways just because theory says the ECM should ignore the O2 at cold start. It doesn't mean that it does if the part bad or for all I know the wrong one.
It's not theory that the ECU ignores O2 sensor signals when the engine is cold, it's DESIGN. If the ECU is reading and using primary O2 sensor signals when the engine is cold, then the ECU is bad or the ECT sensor or circuit is bad.
 


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