Matt Damon makes a good point..

[oc_civic]

heres the TRUE problem with social services in a free society.... are you ready.. greg you find the positive in everything... the good in all people who are bad... and you see no problem giving them some of your earnings to help them.. i wont tell you your wrong.. thats YOUR choice in a free society.. as it is MY choice not to.. you want LAWS to STEAL my money (take it unwillingly) and do what YOU see fit.. thats wrong.. you are imposing YOUR moral compass on me.. that is UNAMERICAN... no one will sit here and fault you for help YOU want to give to PRIVATE sector charitie.. the problem is you want law to FORCE me to share the same compasion you feel.. dont you see the wrongness in that.... i DONT want to donate MY money to the poor.. i shouldnt have to.. the end.. you MAKING me do it makes this country NOT american.. america is the land of the free.. a country where i should be free of forced emotions and compasion.. the LAW should only exist to prevent me from effecting the rights of other individuals.. it starts at equal health care.. it starts at equal schooling.... then it leads to equal housing.. equal pay.. then you have.. communism.. none of these values are values that make america a good place...

 

[JiuJitsu_greg]

*slaps my own forehead in frustration*

Person a is the full time student holding down two jobs. in case i didn't make this clear, i'm talking about me. Person a is responsible one who is forward thinking enough to save money and make a life for himself.

person b IS a lazy dead-beat. I'm TELLING you that. This is MY illustration. you won't deny that this country is full of low-lifes who will take advantage of the system. i don't want u to advocate his laziness. i want you to admit that socialism would be fine if everyone pulled their own weight and was equally skilled....but they don't and they aren't. some people just care about themselves more than others.

if someone is unwilling to help themselves, i'm not going to help them.

My point is that person a and person b all share traits that are similar. A person is rarely every Mr. Perfect and Mr. Dead beat. Both people more then likely share both A nd B's traits at one time or another. I personally thing this country has a lot of potential. This country is not filled full with low lifes. It's filled with regular people with normal issues. There are freaks and weirdos out there but nothing is perfect. People try to take advantage of a bunch of things but that is no reason to not want to help those that generally need help. I don't advocate laziness at all. I whole heartedly admit that socialism would and could be fine but it like every other government on the planet is flawed because of the people behind it. You last sentence describes your and oc's statements toward socialism. I am all up for helping people. Would I give up half of my check for free medical care and free college for the entire nation. You are damn right I would.

 

[JiuJitsu_greg]

heres the TRUE problem with social services in a free society.... are you ready.. greg you find the positive in everything... the good in all people who are bad... and you see no problem giving them some of your earnings to help them.. i wont tell you your wrong.. thats YOUR choice in a free society.. as it is MY choice not to.. you want LAWS to STEAL my money (take it unwillingly) and do what YOU see fit.. thats wrong.. you are imposing YOUR moral compass on me.. that is UNAMERICAN... no one will sit here and fault you for help YOU want to give to PRIVATE sector charitie.. the problem is you want law to FORCE me to share the same compasion you feel.. dont you see the wrongness in that.... i DONT want to donate MY money to the poor.. i shouldnt have to.. the end.. you MAKING me do it makes this country NOT american.. america is the land of the free.. a country where i should be free of forced emotions and compasion.. the LAW should only exist to prevent me from effecting the rights of other individuals.. it starts at equal health care.. it starts at equal schooling.... then it leads to equal housing.. equal pay.. then you have.. communism.. none of these values are values that make america a good place...

I'm not being a spokes person for socialism. I realize that socialism helps people. I like the idea of not just helping myself but helping other people. I understand that not every, well a majority of people hate that idea. So it has not and probably will not happen in the united states do to the overall idealology of the America people to be more self concious then to be concious about the entire nation. I understand you don't want to help others. That is the American way. It's just a sad thing (geez, I say "sad thing" too much) that we can't unite as a nation as opposed to be so separate. I'm not trying to limit freedom, I just think it would be a very positive step for our nation. IN saying that I know it would never pass because you aren't the only one that would lose money. Doctors would be forced into a lower pay scale, Students would have to pay 300$ for a book that took a dollar to print. etc etc etc Buisness would not be as good for those people. I know this, socialized medicine and helping students is something I see as a huge positive.

 

[MR99si]

Once again i'm not saying what people should own.

Sounds like you are to me!


I think a semi automatic weapon is overkill.

Please be specific as to what kind of semi auto. Are you talking about AK-47's,AR's ect. vs. lets say a semi auto remington deer rifle, or a browning BAR deer rifle.

Or perhaps a one of the most common house hold defensive weapons a shotgun (in semi auto).


Its just like those people that drive a huge duelly truck just because they like it.

Having a huge duelly truck isn't a constitutional right, owning a firearm is (huge difference)!


Lets say three people break into oc's house im not sure what kind of weapons he has lets say he has a glock. Will the glock with 22 bullets in the clip be less effected then a semi automatic rifle?

What the hell is the difference? What your saying makes no sense @ all, your fine with semi auto handguns that hold 22 rounds but not semi rifles that hold 22 rounds?

it's simple overkill.

I can kill someone just as dead with 22 rounds of 9mm as I can with 22 rounds of 7.62x39 out of a AK!

You don't need gun and you sure don't need guns that are semi automatic.

I don't need a gun? So if some crack head f**ker breaks into my home when my 115lb wife and son are there what is she supposed to do a little MMA on his ass?

I think you are failing to see that this is a situation of want as opposed to need.

I see the situation as a constitutional right and also a necessary means of protecting myself and my family if need be. If you want to be a victim go right ahead!

Lol I love how you label socialism as crap. It's not crap it's just a less superficial way of governing a nations people.

Your right I should have labeled it as s**t because that's what it is! With people like you voting I'm afraid that our Country with turn into a socialist Country!

.......

 

[Akiahara96]

come on... half of our paychecks wouldn't be taken away. i'd say that's a pretty big exaggeration.

and this topic pisses me off.

 

[MR99si]

I'm not being a spokes person for socialism. I realize that socialism helps people.

Should be called income redistribution!

 

[Jimmy2times]

well, i guess what i never made clear is that i am all for helping the poor and the disadvantaged. that's why i make sandwiches for the poor and give them blankets in the winter. I donate to various charities as i see fit.

what i like about my solution is that i am free to do that of my own will. I think that everyone deserves a chance, but if u squander that chance and you make bad choices, you should have to work hard to get back on your feet.


I'm all for helping people and i'll do so privately; however, like oc, i don't wanna be forced to do it and i don't think th government should dictate it.

 

[Jimmy2times]

Should be called income redistribution!

that's what i call it.

 

[MR99si]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXr1mkYWeCU

 

[Akiahara96]

why am i not surprised...

 

[JiuJitsu_greg]

come on... half of our paychecks wouldn't be taken away. i'd say that's a pretty big exaggeration.

and this topic pisses me off.

I'm talking about in Germany.

In 2007/2008 an income of less than €7,664 is tax-free for a single person (€15,329 for a married couple). Incomes up to €52,152 for a single person (€104,304 for a couple) are then taxed with a rate progressively increasing from 15% to 42%. Incomes over €52,152(€104,304) are taxed at 45%. In addition to this there is the "solidarity surcharge" of 5.5% of the tax, to cover the costs of integrating the states of the former East Germany.

Deductions are granted for circumstances such as children under 18 (or under 27 if still attending school and without earnings), specified insurance premiums, charitable and political contributions to German entities up to certain limits and unavoidable extraordinary expenses above a certain limit (such as illness).

Deductions from compensation are also made for four social programs; retirement, unemployment, health insurance and long-term nursing care. Payments for these programs are borne equally by the employer and the employee. The employer's share of contributions is not considered as taxable income to the employee and the employee's portion is tax deductible up to a certain limit.

If an individual is subject to German tax, generally most sources of income are then taxable. The Lohnsteuer (wage tax), which alone accounts for a third of the German government's revenue, is withheld at source from compensation. Income from other sources (e. g. self-employment, fees for services, rent collections, investments and the like) are covered by the Einkommensteuer (income tax).

The Lohnsteuer differs from the Einkommensteuer only by the method of collection. The Lohnsteuer is collected at source and paid directly to the Finanzamt (tax office) by the employer while the individual must pay the Einkommensteuer himself. Therefore the Lohnsteuer is comparable to the income tax withholding shown on the U.S. Form W-2 (Lohnsteuerkarte).

Based primarily on your final payment for the previous year, the Finanzamt will estimate your tax for the current year and require you to make prepayments (Vorauszahlungen) of a quarter of the tax on March 10, June 10, September 10 and December 10. The total tax liability is determined by filing an income tax return, which includes all types of income from all sources. Wage tax withholding as well as provisional payments are deducted from this total tax liability so that a refund or final tax payment is assessed. The tax assessment is usually issued by the Finanzamt between two and six months from the date the return is filed. No payment will be due before receipts of the tax assessment notice.

Every tax return is under audit, therefore if the tax assessment is issued and is not preliminary, the assessment can only be changed in the future by the occurrence of extraordinary circumstances (e. g. tax evasion).

As a rule, the income tax return (Einkommensteuererklärung) should be filed by May 31 of the year following the one in which the income was received. If you use the assistance of a tax consultant, you have an automatic extension to file until September 30. There may be penalties and interest assessed if the return is filed late.

There are a few situations where the taxpayer is required to pay taxes even though the income is less than the personal allowance, especially when tax-exempt income (such as foreign-sourced income) must be considered for the determination of the applicable income tax rate (progression clause). Taxes are then assessed based on a sliding scale.

 

[JiuJitsu_greg]

Sounds like you are to me!

I am saying the situation of a person having any kind of gun seems rediculous to me. Auto semi auto 6 speed what ever. A gun is your right to own and hopefully you don't shoot a family memebr in the head if they come in the house when you aren't expecting it.


I think a semi automatic weapon is overkill.

A gun that goes bang. bang, bang. should be good enough to defend any house from a burgler. a rapid firing weapon is over kill. so in ignorant english, if the weapon goes ppopopopopopopoppo as apposed to bang bang bang thats overkill. Thats the simplest way to explain it. Remember I think its rediculous to own a gun in the first place.

Or perhaps a one of the most common house hold defensive weapons a shotgun (in semi auto).

Sure if it fires multi rounds per second thats overkill.



Having a huge duelly truck isn't a constitutional right, owning a firearm is (huge difference)!

Actually you could say it is under the protection of the ninth amendment.




What the hell is the difference? What your saying makes no sense @ all, your fine with semi auto handguns that hold 22 rounds but not semi rifles that hold 22 rounds?

I don't like weapons. It's like i'm in a big cave with a bad echo.

it's simple overkill.

I can kill someone just as dead with 22 rounds of 9mm as I can with 22 rounds of 7.62x39 out of a AK!

Great kill away, GO AMERICA !


I don't need a gun? So if some crack head f**ker breaks into my home when my 115lb wife and son are there what is she supposed to do a little MMA on his ass?

I love how everyone tries to pick on my name. Good stuff, anyways I would hope your 115 wife was smart enough to have your home monitored via alarm and I would hope you were a good enough man not to be a smuck and make your family live in a crap neighborhood.



I see the situation as a constitutional right and also a necessary means of protecting myself and my family if need be. If you want to be a victim go right ahead!

I have never been a victim in my life. As you can see I don't play the pessimistic pitty me and save my guns routine. I think someone else is whining about that.


Your right I should have labeled it as s**t because that's what it is! With people like you voting I'm afraid that our Country with turn into a socialist Country!

You gotta love the education level of people in the united states. Our reason for something to be s**t. "that's what it is." Wow, that's completely ignorant.

 

[oc_civic]

I'm talking about in Germany.

In 2007/2008 an income of less than €7,664 is tax-free for a single person (€15,329 for a married couple). Incomes up to €52,152 for a single person (€104,304 for a couple) are then taxed with a rate progressively increasing from 15% to 42%. Incomes over €52,152(€104,304) are taxed at 45%. In addition to this there is the "solidarity surcharge" of 5.5% of the tax, to cover the costs of integrating the states of the former East Germany.

Deductions are granted for circumstances such as children under 18 (or under 27 if still attending school and without earnings), specified insurance premiums, charitable and political contributions to German entities up to certain limits and unavoidable extraordinary expenses above a certain limit (such as illness).

Deductions from compensation are also made for four social programs; retirement, unemployment, health insurance and long-term nursing care. Payments for these programs are borne equally by the employer and the employee. The employer's share of contributions is not considered as taxable income to the employee and the employee's portion is tax deductible up to a certain limit.

If an individual is subject to German tax, generally most sources of income are then taxable. The Lohnsteuer (wage tax), which alone accounts for a third of the German government's revenue, is withheld at source from compensation. Income from other sources (e. g. self-employment, fees for services, rent collections, investments and the like) are covered by the Einkommensteuer (income tax).

The Lohnsteuer differs from the Einkommensteuer only by the method of collection. The Lohnsteuer is collected at source and paid directly to the Finanzamt (tax office) by the employer while the individual must pay the Einkommensteuer himself. Therefore the Lohnsteuer is comparable to the income tax withholding shown on the U.S. Form W-2 (Lohnsteuerkarte).

Based primarily on your final payment for the previous year, the Finanzamt will estimate your tax for the current year and require you to make prepayments (Vorauszahlungen) of a quarter of the tax on March 10, June 10, September 10 and December 10. The total tax liability is determined by filing an income tax return, which includes all types of income from all sources. Wage tax withholding as well as provisional payments are deducted from this total tax liability so that a refund or final tax payment is assessed. The tax assessment is usually issued by the Finanzamt between two and six months from the date the return is filed. No payment will be due before receipts of the tax assessment notice.

Every tax return is under audit, therefore if the tax assessment is issued and is not preliminary, the assessment can only be changed in the future by the occurrence of extraordinary circumstances (e. g. tax evasion).

As a rule, the income tax return (Einkommensteuererklärung) should be filed by May 31 of the year following the one in which the income was received. If you use the assistance of a tax consultant, you have an automatic extension to file until September 30. There may be penalties and interest assessed if the return is filed late.

There are a few situations where the taxpayer is required to pay taxes even though the income is less than the personal allowance, especially when tax-exempt income (such as foreign-sourced income) must be considered for the determination of the applicable income tax rate (progression clause). Taxes are then assessed based on a sliding scale.

if you like that style of government.. go live in germany?

 

[oc_civic]

come on... half of our paychecks wouldn't be taken away. i'd say that's a pretty big exaggeration.

and this topic pisses me off.

why should ANY of my paycheck be taken away..

 

[JiuJitsu_greg]

why should ANY of my paycheck be taken away..

Well your payheck already goes to fund things like roads, and schools, and building bombers, destroyers, keeping and active army. You are funding the war in Iraq etc etc etc.

 

[SilverEXCoupe]

I am all up for helping people. Would I give up half of my check for free medical care and free college for the entire nation. You are damn right I would.

You are free to do just that. To force me to do so puts me and my family out on the street. Maybe when you have a children to feed yourself you will understand. Maybe I should post a pic of my wife, 6 yo boy, and 9 mo old girl that you are trying to put on the street with your socialist views.

 

[SilverEXCoupe]

I love how everyone tries to pick on my name. Good stuff, anyways I would hope your 115 wife was smart enough to have your home monitored via alarm and I would hope you were a good enough man not to be a smuck and make your family live in a crap neighborhood.

So the alarm company notifies the police, and the cops should be there in 5-10 minutes?

"Yeah go ahead honey, just put up with whatever he wants to do to you for 5-10 minutes. The cops are on their way."

And the thing about nice neighborhoods. Do you think that thugs only mug people in the hood? You must live in a cave. Violent crime happens in affluent neighborhoods as well.

 

[oc_civic]

Well your payheck already goes to fund things like roads, and schools, and building bombers, destroyers, keeping and active army. You are funding the war in Iraq etc etc etc.

i dont think we belong in iraq... but my tax money going to the military to protect me is logical.. schools and such.. whatever.. you are naming things that are commonly used equally.. you HAVE to go to school till a certain age.. the government MAKES you do that.. so they have to provide you with the means to do that... you could say anything "shouldnt the government control health care, that leads to a healthier nation" "shouldnt americans eat healthy.. maybe we shoudl force them to consume certain foods.. its all for the better right?" "drugs are bad.. lets make a fund to randomly drug test EVERYONE in the country all the time" are you getting it? theres tons of things you could do to make things "better" the problem is they are unamerican and remove freedom.. i have the freedom to not care about you.. its sad? but its true... FORCING me to provide someone with food.. shelter.. health care.. schooling.. is pathing the road to communism.. it is basically saying.. even though you dont perform equal work as me you deserve equal things.. and thats lame. and not what america is about.... anyone can find success here.. it takes time and effort.. handouts are not the key..

 

[oc_civic]

So the alarm company notifies the police, and the cops should be there in 5-10 minutes?

"Yeah go ahead honey, just put up with whatever he wants to do to you for 5-10 minutes. The cops are on their way."

And the thing about nice neighborhoods. Do you think that thugs only mug people in the hood? You must live in a cave. Violent crime happens in affluent neighborhoods as well.

actually if i were to guess.. break ins probably happen more often in nice areas.. who the f**k is going to break into some apartment in the ghetto.. wtf are you going to steal? lol

 

[JiuJitsu_greg]

You are free to do just that. To force me to do so puts me and my family out on the street. Maybe when you have a children to feed yourself you will understand. Maybe I should post a pic of my wife, 6 yo boy, and 9 mo old girl that you are trying to put on the street with your socialist views.

Socialized medicine would not put you kids or your wife on the street. Thats way over the top don't you think?