probably was thinking of the h22 with their FRM cylinders
How to make decent power without boost
- Thread starter jdmcivic1
- Start date
The amount of noob in this thread is hilarious.
B20v (un boosted) does not = K swap unless you're talking about the A3, then it's close.
Detonation is a culmination of a group of variables; compression, heat and gas exchange. More likely to melt a piston or snap a rod before you crack a cylinder wall... both of the other failures would lead to a cracked cylinder as a by product.
B20 blocks/cranks are not made to move in excess of 6K rpm, leading to a walk, warp or unbalanced condition which causes MAJOR damage. The weakness of a B20V is the rotating assembly.... the B20 block is essentially an LS block slightly bored, there is a few cm of change in the cylinder walls due to most of the displacement being generated in the stroke, not the bore.
The detonation causing damage to the rotating assembly is the suspect in failure, not compression, compression will not directly cause damage, rather create the conditions that cause detonation, which causes damage to the assembly. at worst, compression directly will lift the head or bend valves before causing damage to the block.
Detonation in the incorrect stroke position will NOT cause damage to the cylinder wall directly. It will cause damage to a piston, rod or valve causing an unbalanced condition that, in result, causes damage to the block.
The only thing I have ever encountered that has damaged ONLY the sleeves would be an access overheating environment (i.e. Drag car with 0 coolant) they glaze, warp and fail. Other than that they are pretty solid.
E85 is great if you can handle the conversion, stoic ratio adjustment and O2 adjustments needed to run it successfully or buy a kit for $400... plus E85 is generally more expensive and has lower "gas" mileage... one trip to a racing supply store (the track) and pick up some meth with the kit is a better bang for your buck. IMO
B20v (un boosted) does not = K swap unless you're talking about the A3, then it's close.
Detonation is a culmination of a group of variables; compression, heat and gas exchange. More likely to melt a piston or snap a rod before you crack a cylinder wall... both of the other failures would lead to a cracked cylinder as a by product.
B20 blocks/cranks are not made to move in excess of 6K rpm, leading to a walk, warp or unbalanced condition which causes MAJOR damage. The weakness of a B20V is the rotating assembly.... the B20 block is essentially an LS block slightly bored, there is a few cm of change in the cylinder walls due to most of the displacement being generated in the stroke, not the bore.
The detonation causing damage to the rotating assembly is the suspect in failure, not compression, compression will not directly cause damage, rather create the conditions that cause detonation, which causes damage to the assembly. at worst, compression directly will lift the head or bend valves before causing damage to the block.
Detonation in the incorrect stroke position will NOT cause damage to the cylinder wall directly. It will cause damage to a piston, rod or valve causing an unbalanced condition that, in result, causes damage to the block.
The only thing I have ever encountered that has damaged ONLY the sleeves would be an access overheating environment (i.e. Drag car with 0 coolant) they glaze, warp and fail. Other than that they are pretty solid.
E85 is great if you can handle the conversion, stoic ratio adjustment and O2 adjustments needed to run it successfully or buy a kit for $400... plus E85 is generally more expensive and has lower "gas" mileage... one trip to a racing supply store (the track) and pick up some meth with the kit is a better bang for your buck. IMO
Haha, thanks CHILD. Been building honda motors too long.
**I broke a rule though: OP - to make better power all motor the only things you can do is raise compression(pistons and rods/ blueprint/mill the head/block), raise the valve duration (cams, vlaves, springs, retainers) and fuel management (I suggest a programmable/mappable ECU) The intake manifold, exhaust manifold, exhaust system and intake system will just help facilitate the power and not generate any directly.
Even with all of these changes don't expect astronomical numbers... when going all motor you are limited by displacement, and Honda motors lack it.
Boost is the way to go, just save up and don't waste money on mods that will be out the window in a few months anyway.
There, rule complied **
I second the notion of an "OG to the rescue" picture.
**I broke a rule though: OP - to make better power all motor the only things you can do is raise compression(pistons and rods/ blueprint/mill the head/block), raise the valve duration (cams, vlaves, springs, retainers) and fuel management (I suggest a programmable/mappable ECU) The intake manifold, exhaust manifold, exhaust system and intake system will just help facilitate the power and not generate any directly.
Even with all of these changes don't expect astronomical numbers... when going all motor you are limited by displacement, and Honda motors lack it.
Boost is the way to go, just save up and don't waste money on mods that will be out the window in a few months anyway.
There, rule complied **
I second the notion of an "OG to the rescue" picture.
Thank you, obracer12, for clearing that up. There was so much misconstrued information in here.
How many of you guys have actually run a b20? I ran one, and built a b20v using a b16 head in a buddy's car. As obracer12 said, there is no replacement for displacement. I bought a DC2 with a b20 in it years ago. It was my first experience with the motor, and I'm definitely not a fan. I researched like crazy about boosting it, and discovered it's not a very good candidate honestly. It requires heavy block modification (moreso than most Honda motors) in order to be even moderately reliable (lol @ "reliable" and "boost") or trackable. As pointed out, it's essentially a bored out b18, so the thin sidewalls (which are made out of the same material as b18s, btw), low rev limit, and generally weak internals are all geared toward fuel economy, not performance. The literage difference was essentially to make up for a small amount of torque (to haul around that heavy ass SUV chassis it sat in), and the motor was NEVER intended to get up and go by any means. They just aren't optimum motors. That's why they're so cheap (that, and the shear number of motors on the market). A b20v build can be pretty cool, but it's not going to break the 220hp mark without a lot of planning, money, and knowledge. All motor in Hondas is expensive, and a huge waste of energy/money/time. As others have said, build for boost, and get more satisfaction.
How many of you guys have actually run a b20? I ran one, and built a b20v using a b16 head in a buddy's car. As obracer12 said, there is no replacement for displacement. I bought a DC2 with a b20 in it years ago. It was my first experience with the motor, and I'm definitely not a fan. I researched like crazy about boosting it, and discovered it's not a very good candidate honestly. It requires heavy block modification (moreso than most Honda motors) in order to be even moderately reliable (lol @ "reliable" and "boost") or trackable. As pointed out, it's essentially a bored out b18, so the thin sidewalls (which are made out of the same material as b18s, btw), low rev limit, and generally weak internals are all geared toward fuel economy, not performance. The literage difference was essentially to make up for a small amount of torque (to haul around that heavy ass SUV chassis it sat in), and the motor was NEVER intended to get up and go by any means. They just aren't optimum motors. That's why they're so cheap (that, and the shear number of motors on the market). A b20v build can be pretty cool, but it's not going to break the 220hp mark without a lot of planning, money, and knowledge. All motor in Hondas is expensive, and a huge waste of energy/money/time. As others have said, build for boost, and get more satisfaction.
I was always under the impression that high compression will = rods and pistons going before sleeves. Any b20 I've ever seen with cracked sleeves (honestly, only a few of my friends have run them, and consequently, destroyed them haha) was due to temperature/cooling issues. Our other friend with deep pockets and very little smarts boosted a stock b20 on 14psi (T3/T4) or something stupid like that. He ended up shooting a rod through the bottom of the block before his sleeves went out, but he warped his head too. That thing was a mess...Thank you guys. I made this mistake also of thinking that high comp = cracked sleeves before but the more I thought about it it doesn't make sense at all.
dude do you know how long water meth has been around and how many track cars run the stuff? not to mention i've got a friend of mine that makes 527 on his daily.....with water meth. dude you need to do some more research.NEVER USE METH INJECT!!!!!
Using meth inject means relying on a small, cheap, simple pump to Reduce combustion temp...(which causesdetonation) relying on a simple, cheap pump means gambling with ur expensive engine... There's so many safer, simple ways
Sounds about right.I was always under the impression that high compression will = rods and pistons going before sleeves. Any b20 I've ever seen with cracked sleeves (honestly, only a few of my friends have run them, and consequently, destroyed them haha) was due to temperature/cooling issues. Our other friend with deep pockets and very little smarts boosted a stock b20 on 14psi (T3/T4) or something stupid like that. He ended up shooting a rod through the bottom of the block before his sleeves went out, but he warped his head too. That thing was a mess...
Don't you almost need it for high horsepower/high heat applications? (especially forced induction?)dude do you know how long water meth has been around and how many track cars run the stuff? not to mention i've got a friend of mine that makes 527 on his daily.....with water meth. dude you need to do some more research.
I've never gotten the chance to build a full-race car (over 600hp). The closest we got was building my old roommate's STi to something like 500hp. He just ran 101 octane fuel. He probably should have done research though, as he ended up seizing his turbo, and I think he spun a rod bearing or something. Stopped talking to him. It also got repo'd, lawl.not sure if it's a must but it's definitely nice to have
Thanks for all the info,but u didnt get what i was sayingThe amount of noob in this thread is hilarious.
B20v (un boosted) does not = K swap unless you're talking about the A3, then it's close.
Detonation is a culmination of a group of variables; compression, heat and gas exchange. More likely to melt a piston or snap a rod before you crack a cylinder wall... both of the other failures would lead to a cracked cylinder as a by product.
B20 blocks/cranks are not made to move in excess of 6K rpm, leading to a walk, warp or unbalanced condition which causes MAJOR damage. The weakness of a B20V is the rotating assembly.... the B20 block is essentially an LS block slightly bored, there is a few cm of change in the cylinder walls due to most of the displacement being generated in the stroke, not the bore.
The detonation causing damage to the rotating assembly is the suspect in failure, not compression, compression will not directly cause damage, rather create the conditions that cause detonation, which causes damage to the assembly. at worst, compression directly will lift the head or bend valves before causing damage to the block.
Detonation in the incorrect stroke position will NOT cause damage to the cylinder wall directly. It will cause damage to a piston, rod or valve causing an unbalanced condition that, in result, causes damage to the block.
The only thing I have ever encountered that has damaged ONLY the sleeves would be an access overheating environment (i.e. Drag car with 0 coolant) they glaze, warp and fail. Other than that they are pretty solid.
E85 is great if you can handle the conversion, stoic ratio adjustment and O2 adjustments needed to run it successfully or buy a kit for $400... plus E85 is generally more expensive and has lower "gas" mileage... one trip to a racing supply store (the track) and pick up some meth with the kit is a better bang for your buck. IMO
Sent from tapataalllkk
How come a built all motor runs the same et as a 500 whp boosted car lol ive heard of like 1 person hitting 260whp out of a b20Haha, thanks CHILD. Been building honda motors too long.
**I broke a rule though: OP - to make better power all motor the only things you can do is raise compression(pistons and rods/ blueprint/mill the head/block), raise the valve duration (cams, vlaves, springs, retainers) and fuel management (I suggest a programmable/mappable ECU) The intake manifold, exhaust manifold, exhaust system and intake system will just help facilitate the power and not generate any directly.
Even with all of these changes don't expect astronomical numbers... when going all motor you are limited by displacement, and Honda motors lack it.
Boost is the way to go, just save up and don't waste money on mods that will be out the window in a few months anyway.
There, rule complied **
I second the notion of an "OG to the rescue" picture.
Sent from tapataalllkk
You were saying that detonation (which happens in the chamber, not the base of the cylinder) causes cracked sleeves and he corrected you.Thanks for all the info,but u didnt get what i was saying
Sent from tapataalllkk
I never said only high cr causes it that its a factor thats what i ment
Sent from tapataalllkk
Sent from tapataalllkk
because n/a power is instant unlike boost where it has to be created from the powertrain either through the exhaust spooling the turbo or a belt winding the supercharger...even with that being said the numbers are still going to be somewhat close to each other as far as horsepower ratingHow come a built all motor runs the same et as a 500 whp boosted car lol ive heard of like 1 person hitting 260whp out of a b20
Sent from tapataalllkk
Yeah all motor all daybecause n/a power is instant unlike boost where it has to be created from the powertrain either through the exhaust spooling the turbo or a belt winding the supercharger...even with that being said the numbers are still going to be somewhat close to each other as far as horsepower rating
Sent from tapataalllkk
That's very much what you were saying, hence why we kept arguing.I never said only high cr causes it that its a factor thats what i ment
Sent from tapataalllkk
Then you should have clearly conveyed the message. It also appears you know very little about engine building or their compositions and functions.. So maybe you should argue a little less and read a book.Thanks for all the info,but u didnt get what i was saying
Sent from tapataalllkk
in the turbo vs all motor debate, boost needs to build, it doesn't exist at rpm = 0, but all motor does.
the trade off is the boost is supplementing the lack of displacement to get more power out of a smaller motor.
the old adage of "there is no replacement for displacement" is 100% accurate to this day when referring to all motor builds.
saying "all motor all day" in the honda world is like saying " I have infinitely deep pockets and a 300 whp goal" it's idiotic at best.
also understanding stoicometric ratios and the natures of engines and a little english lesson would have squashed this debate a long time ago. if more than 1 person took your meaning to be different than what you intended, it would be a you issue, not an us issue. so how about that info? good?
almost accurate, the hp numbers would be greatly different in most cases. the trick is the power band and how long you're in it. for example:because n/a power is instant unlike boost where it has to be created from the powertrain either through the exhaust spooling the turbo or a belt winding the supercharger...even with that being said the numbers are still going to be somewhat close to each other as far as horsepower rating
500whp tubro civic vs 300 whp n/a civic (drag builds)
same block and head
turbo powerband is 7k-9k rpm
n/a powerband 5k-9k rpm
in that 2k difference there is a potential energy of .6 being released in the n/a motor that has yet to be harnessed int he turbo build due to lag/spool making the delta negative for the turbo build in that 2k rpm range which the n/a build has been in for roughly 1-5 seconds depending on the build.
However, once the turbo potential has been achieved for the remaining 2k in the powerband the release is a 1.2 on the turbo build, making up for the initial lack and bringing the cars nose to nose.
this cycle would repeat every gear, the turbo car falling in and out of boost causing a -.6 to +.6 condition making the gain 0 on the n/a build which has been in the powerband consistently.
this is a generalization but the easiest to explain via text.