Brake imbalance

fabricgator

FabricGATOR
One rear brake locks up

Hello All
Thank you for being here.

My girlfriends 96 CX Hatch, she has been worried because her right rear wheel would break loose at times on the highway. This car had the original tires from 96, so we changed them out two at a time as her finance permitted.

We just had the last two changed out, and like a commissioned service advisor should, he told her that she was in need of front pads. OK, put the tires on and I'll take care of the brakes.

I changed the pads with the better ceramics, broke the glaze on the rotors with my die grinder sanding disks and softened them with a final run of scotch brite disks. I changed (flushed) the entire brake system with a quart of new, unopened DOT3. Bled the brakes, then bedded them in properly by several 40 MPH hard stops with 30 minute cooling intervals. I'm trying to do it to the best of my skills and abilities.

This car is mint, got it at 36k miles from my mom's 89 year old mechanic boyfriend. Garage kept after his wife passed on. He even kept a log book of every maintenance done since new and we keep that up to date. Honda factory parts and fluids are used for most applications. Becky puts a hundred highway miles a day on it to work. Her long distance mileage machine. A very happy car.

So, while bedding in the brakes, sure enough, the right rear brake would break free during hard stops. I took it out on a dirt road and confirmed that the RR breaks first, a harder faster stop will get the three grabbing first.

Today, I just removed the rear drums, inspected, washed down with brake kleen, checked for air in the brake lines, checked for free movement in the adjusters (not stuck, dry, clean and bright, no corrosion or rust).
Then I checked the shoe adjustments for balance. I ensured I had no brake drag with the wheels off the ground. Played around with the adjustment on the left rear until it matched the right with various degrees of hand brake clicks. Mashing the brake pedal and stroking the hand brake to reset the shoes after each adjustment. Test drive, still the right rear wheel breaks free first, even before the fronts.

I noticed that the rear tires, the two new ones we just got, that the date code was a few production weeks off so I swapped them thinking that the rubber compound might not be matched. Also, I loosened the adjuster on the RR three teeth. No change.

So I ask you, the guru's that tweak these things regularly, where else should I look?

I am the best marine, automotive, aviation and subsea robotics technician that I know. I always strive to make my machines perfect, and it pays off!
 
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fabricgator

FabricGATOR
I guess without guidance or suggestion, I'm going to have to tear apart the rear brakes and figure out what is happening. On junkie cars, I have found collapsed brake hoses or possibly a seized cylinder... maybe a cylinder where the bore is corroded inside the bore allowing bypass, but I don't see evidence of leaking at the cylinder.

The drum did not appear different from side to side, so I don't think it is glazing on the drum. the shoes are clean and substantial.

I wish someone would chime in and help me surgically troubleshoot this anomaly.

Its not rocket science, I believe that there is a single hydraulic brake line the goes to the rear axle from some proportional valve up under the hood (to apply more braking to the front than the rear), tee's into right and left rear brakes and applies similar pressure to both sides. Is this the way the civic rear brakes are designed?
 

fabricgator

FabricGATOR
bumpity bump..

I really could use some suggestions. Has no one else had this problem?
 


fabricgator

FabricGATOR
"breaks loose" = locks up or skids

Yeah, I see what you mean. I also wish I could edit the original title. "Brake Imbalance"
Thanks for the heads up BloodShot.

When I perform hard or aggressive braking, the right rear locks up first or skids. Then both fronts will skid.

I practiced on a dirt road to try and figure what was happening.

Becky has said that she is afraid to drive on highway in heavy rain. I worry that the car will try to come around on her. In Florida we see cars in the median all the time on the highway. I wondered how people could let them get so far out of control that they end up in the ditch. Just last week I witnessed one in motion right in front of me on the Florida Turnpike. The girl T-boned the center median guardrail. Luckily, no one was seriously injured.
 

Kenneth

New Member
5+ Year Member
Just a shot in the dark, but did you replace the brake springs? Did you put lubrication on the friction points on the plate?
 

xxBLOOD88SHOTxx

Surge Master
Registered VIP
I got it, there is more braking force in the rear than in the front on your civic.

Sure this isn't a proportioning valve issue?
 

lethal6

Your Mom's Moderator
Staff member
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5+ Year Member
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How exactly, is a proportion valve problem, diagnosed?
For one, it is a VERY common sign of a rear tire locking up before the front.

You test them with pressure gauges.
 

Kenneth

New Member
5+ Year Member
For one, it is a VERY common sign of a rear tire locking up before the front.

You test them with pressure gauges.
I'd like to know more about this guage test, is this a specific guage? How, and where is it connected into the system?
 

fabricgator

FabricGATOR
Proportional valve.

Yes, that's a good point. the fronts brakes should be about 75% of the stopping force.

I was tunnel vision on why the one rear tire was grabbing first, and it didn't dawn on me that the one tire was in the rear. I love you guys.

I need to check that proportioning valve first. Are there test / troubleshoot procedures in the Honda maintenance manual? Lethal6, can you advise what the test procedure is?
 

fabricgator

FabricGATOR
No proportioning test method in Honda manual.

I looked through the manual again, there was no method or mention of testing the proportioning valve. If fact, they really didn't cover it much at all.

Any tech's have the procedure for pressure testing?
 

fabricgator

FabricGATOR
Thank you,

Thank you Lethal, yes you are correct. I should have googled the question myself.

Good article, I'll get to it at the next opportunity. Can you advise if this is a "Split Diagonal" system like the article mentions. The reason I ask is that I noticed the bleed sequence is in a diagonal or cross pattern in the Honda manual. I ignorantly bled the RR, LR, then RF and finally LF.

Again, thank you.
 

96romaCX

New Member
Registered VIP
5+ Year Member
There's nothing wrong with bleeding them that way, it's typically the most common practice used being it is less likely to cross contaminate old/new fluid this way during a brake flush. The proportioning valve is located against the fire wall and every corner is supplied its own individual hard line from the proportioning valve.
 

fabricgator

FabricGATOR
Thank you 96roma,

Its probably going to be the proportional valve, especially now that you explained that there is an individual line from valve to each wheel. I'm used to the older vehicles where the back brakes have a single line back, then tee'd off to the drums. That was where my confusion why the one rear was not grabbing and the other was before the fronts.

Thank you all for sharing your experience and knowledge. I'll give it a thorough inspection, cleaning, replacement and let you know the outcome for others to know too.
 

mazhar

New Member
[MENTION=131049]fabricgator[/MENTION]
So were you able to get your problem solved?
Coz i am facing the same problem? Rear wheel skids first on hard braking. Can not risk my life if i had to brake hard on highway...
 


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