96 Civic D16 turns over but won't run

[Steven13]

96 Civic D16 turns over but won't run ** SOLVED (ish)**

I'm new to Honda bought this as a daily driver for $400. The story is this car ran one day then wouldn't start the next morning. As of now the motor turns over fine. It doesn't try to run as if plugs aren't firing.

From what I can these things are OK:

All spark plugs appear to have adequate spark, not quite white though, definitely not blue
All grounds appear normal
Battery good and terminals clean
New plug wires and cap, as I said above appear to fire ok
Fuel pump primes and shuts off after a few seconds as it should
Cleaned fuel injectors, and they appear to spray adequately
Fuel is definitely going to cylinders
Main relay clicks when key in ON position
Camshaft rotated to up position, piston at TDC, rotor button on #1
Compression reading around 100psi
Oil is present on dip stick, looks normal
Exhaust valves appear to open and close normally
Throttle opens and close normal
No apparent electrical shorts in whole car, radio, lights, etc all work apparently normal
Stock D16 motor


Things I'm not sure about:

Whether or not the coil and igniter actually are good.
EXACT timing
Actual fuel pressure
Whether or not exhaust is clear, but no blockage suspected
Whether or not intake valves open and close normally
ECM health
CEL code 14, I believe is IAC valve

**************************Solved********************************************Solved***********************

Ok, so. I bought a new distributor because I was hinted around by a Honda enthusiast from Advanceauto Parts. I honestly couldn't see spending that much money on something that I wasn't sure would fix it. I caved earlier today and ended up buying one that was in stock at Orielly's.Before I go any further I need to confess I haven't fully grasped electrical trouble shooting. A simple Ohm test from lead-to-lead on the tester gave me enough understanding that I could at least make an educated guess to decide if its bad or not.

When I got back home I figured I'd test a few more things before putting on the distributor and risking losing the money for something that wouldn't fix my problem ($200+) is what I paid.... I did some of the voltage tests for the ICM and something like 4/10 normal tests was convincing enough for me so I just deemed it ok. Next I did an Ohm test on the coil. the '+' to '-' Ohm read 0.7-0.9, this seemed high, but less resistance than "normal" on a hot day seemed good enough. Next the '+' to the Seconday Terminal showed full resistance on all the Ohm measurements (20, 20k, 200k, etc.).

I was baffled at this point because I was definitely getting spark at the coil, cap, wires, and plugs. I assumed I just wasn't testing the coil correctly. So, for the hell of it I just took the coil off the new (re-manufactured) distributor and put it on the car. It ran... it freaking ran! At around 6-10 hours of fiddiling with this car it started right up with that new coil! It shortly died after a few seconds and it ran rough too. The car had been sitting for at least 3 months broke down, so this was kind of expected.

After a few more tries to start it would run for a second then shut off. I tried starting fluid, I quickly realized this bogged down the motor and made it harder to start. So, I just sat there and turned the motor for a minuted trying to let it flush it self out, then it ran some more. I let it idle for a bit and it seemed to smooth out. It smoked like hell, had a very obvious exhaust leak under the hood, but it ran and revved well.

Then, I drove it around the shop a couple of times and parked it. I took the coil off, put it back on the new distributor, and returned it to the store. Orielly's and Advanceauto both want $60+ for a new coil. I'm going to just order one online and see where that gets me. If it doesn't fix it I'll be back with more questions.

Engine
Exterior

 

[XpL0d3r]

to ClubCivic! One of our more knowledgeable guys on the site will be sure to help you out with this issue. In the mean time, is the CEL lit? Any mods to the motor or is it a stock D16?

 

[Steven13]

It's a stock motor. The CEL does not stay on when the key is in the ON position

OK the CEL does throw a 14, I believe is IAC

 

[XpL0d3r]

You jumped the service connector and got code 14? I wouldn't think that would prevent your car for starting, you'd just have a whacked out idle. Wouldn't hurt to check the wires / plug and clean the IACV anyways though.

 

[Steven13]

it has new wires, plugs, and cap. ive checked them like 6 times. they all have fire. and i couldnt get it run period. all it it did was turn over, not giving the slightest hint it was firing. but i know for sure the plug were.


but anyways.....

i have it running now! turns out it was just the ignition coil was weak. yay!

 

[RonJ]

they all have fire.

turns out it was just the ignition coil was weak.

You should have mentioned the fire was wimpy.

 

[Steven13]

You should have mentioned the fire was wimpy.

i did in the first post. the spark is supposed to be noticeably white to light blue, from what I've gathered on the forum before i joined up. i said that it wasn't quite white and definitely not blue. but i really thought it was enough spark. and switching the coils was a real shot in the dark since it looked like it was firing. oh and the the ohms tested the same on the old coil and the new coil, i might have done it wrong but the results were comparable. and even after i took the new stuff back to the store i had one of the guys in there test and he said that they both test the same. he knew how to test the ohms and showed me how to correctly do it. also, the spark from the new coil really didnt seem that much stronger, but im really inexperienced. my dad is a good hotrod guy, not so much of post-fuel injection stuff though, so he of course didnt suspect the coil either.

 

[RonJ]

i did in the first post

Sorry, your post was so long that I could not summon the ambition to read it.

ohms tested the same on the old coil and the new coil, i might have done it wrong

The most common error for Ohm testing coils is not knowing to subtract the internal resistance of your multimeter from the primary coil reading. When the testing is done correctly, the vast majority of bad coils can be identified.

And most auto parts store employees are basically clueless about cars and good advice.

 

[Steven13]

Sorry, your post was so long that I could not summon the ambition to read it.

lol yea i dont blame you. i just didnt want to come on here asking a bunch of questions without showing i tried to do the research my self.

The most common error for Ohm testing coils is not knowing to subtract the internal resistance of your multimeter from the primary coil reading. When the testing is done correctly, the vast majority of bad coils can be identified.

And most auto parts store employees are basically clueless about cars and good advice.

it was weird because i couldnt get a read out of it, but the sales guy got a normal reading using my ohm meter. even with subtracting the meters own resistance it still would have been in the normal range.

 

[RonJ]

even with subtracting the meters own resistance it still would have been in the normal range.

Did you actually measure it^ or are you speculating? What was it and the coil readings?

 

[Steven13]

the new and old coils read 16.5kohm, the ohm resistance on my meter was less than 0.1ohm, so that really didnt factor in to it.

 

[RonJ]

the new and old coils read 16.5kohm, the ohm resistance on my meter was less than 0.1ohm, so that really didnt factor in to it.

This^ reveals your error.

Your 16.5k Ohm reading is for the secondary coil winding, which should be very high resistance and therefore makes the meter's internal resistance irrelevant.

When you test a coil, you make two separate resistance measurements - primary and secondary. The spec reading for the primary coil winding is less than 1 Ohm, so it is crucial to subtract the meter's internal resistance.

 

[Steven13]

I have the TEC type distributor, so I used the 2nd coil in that image. On BOTH the old and new coils: The 'A+' to 'B-' read at 0.8 (without subtracting, and they were both easily 80F degress hot), and the 'A+' to 'Secondary' read 16kOhm to 16.9kOhm. According to the TEC image, the coils test OK.

But like I said both the old and the new coils tested the same. Although, it runs with a new one and not with an old one, that is the part thats confusing me. Oh well though, it runs lol.

 

[RonJ]

I have the TEC type distributor, so I used the 2nd coil in that image. On BOTH the old and new coils: The 'A+' to 'B-' read at 0.8 (without subtracting, and they were both easily 80F degress hot), and the 'A+' to 'Secondary' read 16kOhm to 16.9kOhm. According to the TEC image, the coils test OK.

But like I said both the old and the new coils tested the same. Although, it runs with a new one and not with an old one, that is the part thats confusing me.

It was very puzzling that you even mentioned the secondary resistance in conjunction with the meter's internal resistance as it is completely irrelevant. And you never mentioned the primary reading until now - very suspect. Just seems like you're making it up as you go.

Again, my experience is that the vast majority of coil Ohm tests are done incorrectly and therefore miss the faults.

Oh well though, it runs lol.

Happy driving.

 

[Steven13]

why in the world would I make any of this stuff up? i did put most of this stuff in my first post when i edited it before i even replied to your last few questions. i straight said im not the best with electrical testing and that i let someone with SOME experience show me what to do. whether he did it correctly or not didnt make a difference to me, i know most parts salesman dont know a whole lot, but ive known this guy for a while and no one was hurt in the testing, so... i dont know what else to say about that. the point for me is he did get measurements. whether they were 100% accurate or not they did test the same between new and old.

i didnt have any more time Friday to work on it, and i wont have time until this Wednesday afternoon. i ordered a coil online, granted it was a cheap one. i couldnt keep the one that did allow the car to run since it was part of a whole new distributor, and i had to return it because it wouldve been a waste of $200 for a part i didnt need. if the cheap coil i ordered doesnt seem to work, ill go to honda and buy one from them. then if that one doesnt work ill keep trouble shooting. im doing it this way because i'm 100% sure its just the coil that is needed for it to run. and i know cheap ebay parts are unreliable. but the motor needs serious maintenance so i dont want to start spending lots on it right now until i check internals and change gaskets and stuff.

ill post some pics of me doing the testing on wednesday so you can see if im still doing it wrong. hopefully the new (cheap) coil will be in by then.

please no grief about the cheap parts. ive liked these cars since i was in highschool and i have a brand new car right now, i bought this to keep myself from the video games lol. this IS just a cheap project for me, for now. when i know all the internals are tight, ill move to quality parts, scouts honor.