Idle/start issues: 99 LX

[pantyraid]

99 lx sedan auto d16y7 totally stock as far as I know

Since I tend to ramble I highlighted the main points of this, everything not in bold is just details that may or may not be important (I'm not really sure)

It's been having idling issues (and a possible bad head gasket although no symptoms of that lately unless that has something to do with this issue, no overheating or coolant loss recently though and it's never had smoke), when I try to start it it revs SUPER low and then sort of sputters and dies, and on subsequent attempts it just cranks but won't catch, usually if I try enough times and floor the gas pedal it does start eventually but it's a pain in the ass

About a week ago we replaced the spark plugs (the old ones had good blue spark, at least the two I checked, but the second two were in WAY too tight and I ended up having to get my friend to get them out for me, at that point we switched places so I didn't see the spark and I can't remember how he said it looked but we just replaced them all because why the hell not), haven't done the plug wires yet though.

Right after changing them it was like a brand new car, started perfectly, no idling issues, nothing.

Turned it off, started again perfectly. Drove it around, got it up to operating temperature, turned it off again, turned right back on a third time again with no issues whatsoever.

Good to go right? Wrong

Drove it to mcdonalds, running great, went in, came back out to start it again and it did the stalling/sputtering out/low revs thing again, got it started on the second try but it got worse from there.

The next two times I drove it it was back to how it was before, took about six or seven tries each time while flooring it to get it started, and the last time I tried to start it I just gave up after a few tries cause I didn't want to get stuck somewhere and have to have it towed home

I was wondering if anyone had any ideas as to why it started and idled great those first 3 times and then went back to s**t?

Does that indicate anything specifically? (Like the 'put some oil in the cylinders and the compression rises then your piston rings are probably worn' type thing? Except 'put new spark plugs in and your idling gets better for an hour then your ____ is messed up' instead? Haha I guess that's probably wishful thinking)

Anything I should do diagnostic-wise? (That I can do without having the car running?) -edit- ran codes, came back as p0171, p0420, p0300, 301, 302, 303, and 304)

I'm also planning on cleaning the iacv to see if that helps (if I ever get enough time to try to get the bottom half of the airbox off again) and I have some add to the tank fuel injector cleaner but I figure I can't do anything with that unless I can get the car running

Anyway thanks & I hope you're all having nice days

 

[xxBLOOD88SHOTxx]

Your first problem is you went to McDonalds....






























and didn't get me anything.

As far as your car goes, read this http://www.clubcivic.com/forum/threads/car-wont-start-after-driving.227710/

Unless this isn't happening when it's cold and only when it is hot (after being driven).

When was the last time you did some more basic maintenance to this car (beyond spark plugs)

Is the check engine light on?

 

[pantyraid]

Your first problem is you went to McDonalds....






























and didn't get me anything.

As far as your car goes, read this http://www.clubcivic.com/forum/threads/car-wont-start-after-driving.227710/

Unless this isn't happening when it's cold and only when it is hot (after being driven).

When was the last time you did some more basic maintenance to this car (beyond spark plugs)

Is the check engine light on?

Teehee @ mcdonalds

It does it both cold and hot, virtually every single time I try to start it really

The check engine light is on although I haven't read the code yet, it had a cel a few months ago when I went for emissions that said something like bank 2 oxygen sensor too lean I think? But it went off for a while after that (that was before this issue, back when it was overheating due to a probably bad head gasket, but that blue devil sealer crap actually took care of that.. for the time being anyway)

Maintenance uhh let's see, not much, I've gotten the oil changed more than regularly, flushed the radiator a few times, new thermostat, new radiator cap, and I think that's about it (I also have some fuel injector cleaner that I haven't put in yet cause I figure the car has to turn on for it to do anything)

Haven't done the distributor cap, rotor, plug wires, or anything else I can think of though, at least not since I got the car in december

 

[xxBLOOD88SHOTxx]

Your car is OBD2, get the codes read and address that issue first. Bad o2 can make a car run like s**t. Then move to other maintenance things. You can put the injector cleaner in there, won't hurt anything.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[pantyraid]

Your car is OBD2, get the codes read and address that issue first. Bad o2 can make a car run like s**t. Then move to other maintenance things. You can put the injector cleaner in there, won't hurt anything.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Alrighty spank you, will do

As for the codes if I can't drive the car up to advance auto do they lend the scanners out? Or would the paper clip obd1 trick do in a pinch if they don't? (Clearly obd2 would be more descriptive, I've considered just buying a scanner but idk how often I'd use it)

Edit:

So essentially the order I should go in is

Get codes

Fix whatever comes up

If it's still stalling then do the plug wires cap and rotor and maybe clean the iacv and map sensor? (Can you clean the map sensor? I've read that you can't but the internet is full of conflicting information on that subject)

 

[xxBLOOD88SHOTxx]

Your car is OBD2, you need a scanner. But yeah do all that.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[Joe Mason]

Would NOT be a bad idea to replace the rest of the ignition components. Spend the $ and get OEM stuff. Advance or Autozone ignition parts are generally garbage.

 

[pantyraid]

Would NOT be a bad idea to replace the rest of the ignition components. Spend the $ and get OEM stuff. Advance or Autozone ignition parts are generally garbage.

Good to know, thanks

Yeah it seems like a lot of advance auto stuff kinda sucks, the air filter I bought from there was flimsy as hell and nowhere near as nice as my previous one and I'm still wondering if the radiator fan switch they sold me was bad (it didn't work but there's always the possibility that the problem could be the relay I guess, my friend says it definitely isn't but I didn't think you could tell just by looking at it - without even taking it out at that.. fan works great with a paper clip stuck in the switch though so that's my temporary solution till I figure it out haha)

 

[EdtheChipmunk]

Good to know, thanks

Yeah it seems like a lot of advance auto stuff kinda sucks, the air filter I bought from there was flimsy as hell and nowhere near as nice as my previous one and I'm still wondering if the radiator fan switch they sold me was bad (it didn't work but there's always the possibility that the problem could be the relay I guess, my friend says it definitely isn't but I didn't think you could tell just by looking at it - without even taking it out at that.. fan works great with a paper clip stuck in the switch though so that's my temporary solution till I figure it out haha)

I use bond auto parts where I'm at. They seem to carry better quality parts.

 

[mymmeryloss]

So if you have a cel why havent you fixed that problem and why wouldnt you assume thats probably whats wrong with your car?

 

[tattedlariat]

Okay, i had the same issues you did. I changed plugs. Wires. Ignition coil. Distributor cap. And then, it died on me. We pushed it to the shop, and it was the entire distributor.

 

[pantyraid]

So if you have a cel why havent you fixed that problem and why wouldnt you assume thats probably whats wrong with your car?

Short answer, because I'm a dumbass

Long answer, I did finally run the codes, and it seems like they could all have a few causes, which is what I'm working on now (well after this nightmare of a tooth abscess gets better enough so I can bend over and pick things up without my face feeling like it's about to explode I will be anyway), I was just curious as to why changing the spark plugs made a huge difference but only for like an hour

(Oh also happy father's day sir)

 

[pantyraid]

Hmm so there's been an interesting development in this saga of failure

Replaced the fuel filter and put some fuel system cleaner in, got it started after lots of gas pedal pumping and let it idle for a while periodically revving it up

Turned it off, turned it back on with no issues whatsoever

Off and on again a couple more times, again working great

Took it out for a drive to get the fuel system cleaner circulating, check engine light was off by the time I got home (all by itself, no resetting on my part)

Let it rest for a little over an hour, went back out to take it out on the highway and it didn't want to start it only took me like 3 tries (with lots of pumping the gas pedal) to get it started which I guess is still an improvement over before but now I'm kinda lost again

After getting back I tested it out some more and immediately after getting home it again started fine twice in a row with no issues but then later it was back to the whole not wanting to start thing, and I haven't tried it out today yet (also I still can't really tell if engine temperature affects anything, it was never really fully cooled down, every time the gauge was pretty close to operating temperature or just a little bit under)


At this point there's still no cel so now I'm wondering what my next step should be, maybe get the fuel pressure tested or go back to trying to clean the iacv and/or map sensor? Or am I totally off base? Any suggestions? Thanks guys, as always I really appreciate the help you've given me

 

[lethal6]

Do a full tune up on the car, then report back. This could be something simple as neglected maintenance. Old ignition parts are the devil. Use good stuff. NGK, OEM, etc.

Also, have the car scanned and report the codes. Even though the CEL isn't on right now, they should have stored and it will push you in a direction instead of just throwing parts at it and hoping a fix will land.

 

[pantyraid]

Do a full tune up on the car, then report back. This could be something simple as neglected maintenance. Old ignition parts are the devil. Use good stuff. NGK, OEM, etc.

Also, have the car scanned and report the codes. Even though the CEL isn't on right now, they should have stored and it will push you in a direction instead of just throwing parts at it and hoping a fix will land.

Alright thank you, I'll get on that asap

As for the codes I did scan it again last night when it went back to the hard starting crap and it came back with an error message but it still has the same codes from before on there, not sure if the scanner never deleted them from before or if it read them right then but it still had p0171 p0420 p0300 p0301 p0302 p0303 and p0304 all stored in its memory

Not sure if it indicates anything's changed but I did notice that the flashing check engine light was no longer on either (before sometimes it would keep flashing for a little while after the regular two seconds or whatever it is and everything else had turned off, does that mean that at least it wasn't misfiring any more last night? I remember hearing that a flashing cel usually has something to do with misfiring and potential for internal engine damage? I can't remember the source of that information though and it very well could be totally unreliable)

 

[lethal6]

Did you google what the codes mean? That gave you your direction and answer right from the start and would have saved half a thread of guessing. ALL of the codes are a direct link and relation to exactly the way your car has been running.


P0171:
Common causes include:
- Intake or vacuum leaks
- Clogged or faulty Mass Air Flow sensor (MAF)
- Faulty PCV valve
- Stuck open purge valve/solenoid
- Faulty oxygen sensor
- Improperly installed aftermarket cold intake
- Low fuel pressure
- Clogged catalytic converter


P0420
Common causes:
- bad cat
- bad o2 sensor giving false reading


P0300
Misfire on all or multiple cylinders at the same time
Common causes:
- Faulty spark plugs or wires
- Faulty oxygen sensor(s)
- Faulty fuel injector(s)
- Burned exhaust valve
- Faulty catalytic converter(s)
- Stuck/blocked/leaking EGR valve / passages
- Faulty camshaft position sensor
- Defective ECU

P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304
Misfire on cylinders 1, 2, 3, and 4 respectively.
*See causes above for all cylinder misfire*



All your problems are pointing to the same general area which would cause terrible starting, poor idle, low idle, etc.

Full tune up is the main thing that should be focused on here as almost all your codes have to do with possible bad wires and plugs. Next common theme would be bad o2 sensor(s).

Personally, I think that the plugs and or wires are shot and has caused the car to run poorly and in turn may have taken out the o2 sensor, cat, or both causing the P0171 and P0420 codes.

 

[lethal6]

Also, a poorly tuned/running car will f'k up some plugs in short time. Could be why it "worked" for a short period after the plug install.

What brand are the plugs? They should be NGK. Hondas are notorious for rejecting other brand plugs.

Your car is probably running rich because of all the misfires. Until that is fully corrected you are going to keep drowning out the plugs. It is flooding the car when trying to start because they aren't firing correctly.

 

[pantyraid]

Yeah I looked up the codes back when I first scanned them, plugs were the first thing I changed and plug wires I have in my cart on amazon I just keep forgetting to actually finish my order haha (well that and I'm still trying to decide if I want to get some more tune up related things from amazon at the same time)

Ok o2 sensor was the other thing I thought about ordering but I wasn't totally sure and figured I'd find out a little more before spending the money (I'm guessing that's another thing I shouldn't cheap out on right? Or are off brand o2 sensors not as horrible as certain other things?)

While I did notice that my catalytic converter could have something to do with this I'm just kind of cringing and hoping as hard as I can that it's not cause that I most definitely couldn't afford it and even if I could I couldn't really justify spending that much on this particular vehicle

Edit- ok that definitely makes sense, and the plugs are ngk, the copper ones if I remember correctly, they were the ones the service manual specified (oh also I haven't checked the spark on the new ones - I guess I should do that when I get a chance - but the old ones did have good blue spark, if the wires were bad would they be able to do that? I'm going to replace them anyway I've just been wondering about that ever since checking them)

 

[Esotericimage]

Also. If you need a new coil, Accel makes one that's about 60 bucks on amazon. I think its part number 11070.

 

[lethal6]

100% definitely always stay with OEM sensors. An off brand o2 sensor specifically, will give you more headaches and are the cause of a lot of failures and misdiagnosis. I would do the full tune up first and see how that goes. Make sure the wires are NGK as well.

I would replace the wires before checking spark. If they are worn or cracked, you wouldn't like the shock they put out. Doesn't feel too good. Bad wires can do weird things. The heat of the engine could cause things to expand and loose contact, solder points on the crimped ends could be cracked and losing contact at varied points, etc.

I would definitely replace the cap and rotor as well. They are the single most overlooked part to an ignition system. I have had people get to me with a poorly running car that has been having starting issues only to find out that the rotor is corroded and the inside of the cap is all nasty.

If you don't know when the last time a full tune up was done, it needs to be done before proceeding with anything else. Troubleshooting a car for major stuff that still hasn't had the basics done is a huge waste of time. I won't touch someone's car to diag poor running or starting if they haven't had a tune up in a long time. The simple stuff can cause the biggest problems.