Engine Shut off and Start Issues 98' Civic

[deanazoon]

Hi Guys, I have a Honda Civic LX 98' Sedan

I was told I'm an idiot for buying a car from a smog technician. Lesson Learned.

-6 months ago the car started shutting off while I'm driving it and at lights (had to wait a while and turned back on). I put engine cleaner in while I pumped tank about 4 times, and was told to pump 91 from then on (from a car mechanic friend)
-For the next 2-4 months it also had rpm would fluctuate like it wanted to die but then I would gas it hard and get it running again, this would happen while driving anywhere, freeway and residential.
-Last week it has ALSO on some days been shutting off right after starting it but doesn't shut off completely you can hear the engine trying to make connections.

I took it to mechanic one #1- claimed key ignition issue wanted 300$
mechanic #2- had car for 3 days 6 months ago took these notes:
1- Tank side evap code 11456
2- Spark can be your ignition coil or ignitor
3- Fuel PGM- FI main relay - controls fuel pump
#2 also proved there was nothing wrong with the key while driving it and turning on and off.

Im a grad student so I try to keep it maintained, high milage oil changes and check ups. The issue happens randomly and each mechanic is trying to duplicate to no avail. I am thinking now it would duplicate some issues if they drove it for 2-3 days since its been months since my last mechanic visit. but it never had the issue where I could start it at all that day. so now i really need to fix it to make it to my classes. As a female I just dont know who to trust and mechanic #2 was from Craigslist and doesn't respond to me anymore (not sure why). I am in San Jose , CA. Thanks guys, I would buy you a beer if I could!

Whats a car in this condition worth to sell? I paid 2,700.

 

[Joe Mason]

Hi welcome to ClubCivic. I would suggest getting it running right before you try to sell it. Otherwise you won't get much at all. Like <$500 in my opinion for its current condition. What kind of mileage? Automatic or manual? When was the last time you replaced the plugs and wires?

 

[deanazoon]

Its automatic, 187k , bought it one year ago and have not replaced any parts except break work.
I'd rather fix it, but if im going to get a list of "maybe this can be broken" then I dont know if its worth fixing.

 

[lethal6]

At the very least, a full tune up should be done. It is crazy trying to chase running problems when the basic stuff isn't fresh or up to date.

Ignition housing problems can be intermittent. Just because the second mechanic didn't have any issues, doesn't totally rule that out. I have seen them work only on cold days, or only during dry months, or only in the morning, or only mid afternoon, etc. You already said this happens every once in a while so just because they didn't have the problem duplicate doesn't directly eliminate this issue. Not that I think it leads to your problem directly, but some of your symptoms to point to bad ignition housing.

That being said, given what you have supplied here, I believe you have a bad main relay and a vacuum leak. Among other things that could be wrong being that there is no known or given time frame from the last full tune up.

Bad relay would be intermittent until it finally goes out and the car won't start at all. I had mine only work in the morning and after a hot day sitting in the sun at work, it wouldn't start. Google "honda main relay problem" and see why this is happening. It has to do with the solder joints failing.

Vacuum leak would make it idle funny.

 

[deanazoon]

At the very least, a full tune up should be done. It is crazy trying to chase running problems when the basic stuff isn't fresh or up to date.

Ignition housing problems can be intermittent. Just because the second mechanic didn't have any issues, doesn't totally rule that out. I have seen them work only on cold days, or only during dry months, or only in the morning, or only mid afternoon, etc. You already said this happens every once in a while so just because they didn't have the problem duplicate doesn't directly eliminate this issue. Not that I think it leads to your problem directly, but some of your symptoms to point to bad ignition housing.

That being said, given what you have supplied here, I believe you have a bad main relay and a vacuum leak. Among other things that could be wrong being that there is no known or given time frame from the last full tune up.

Bad relay would be intermittent until it finally goes out and the car won't start at all. I had mine only work in the morning and after a hot day sitting in the sun at work, it wouldn't start. Google "honda main relay problem" and see why this is happening. It has to do with the solder joints failing.

Vacuum leak would make it idle funny.

I agree I keep saying to my brother lets replace all the basic stuff, and hes like NO we have to find out whats exactly wrong with it! Ugh. So with the relay and vacuum, how much am I looking at $$ wise? In regards to terminology is the relay part of the ignition housing or is that separate? should I order my own parts or take it to a shop? I found a lot of mobile mechanics in my area who would come to me for a small fee and would be 75/ an hour thereafter. Thanks for all your help !

 

[lethal6]

Problem is and it's the first rule of mechanics, unless it has a code that is being thrown that leads directly to a problem, or it is something obvious like a dead battery unless you have the car tuned the way it should be you could be chasing something that isn't even there. Say you do all this work and it turns out in the end that you had a bad spark plug wire or something else and trivial that could have been eliminated easily from the equation.

Been there with customers before. Been there myself. Ran around chasing a noise from what I thought was the transmission...long story short after rebuilding the damn thing and the noise still being there it turned out to be a bad rotor in the distributor that was hitting the contacts as it was spinning. I bought the car with it like that and knew better than to start digging in without the basics being done but I got careless and it cost me big.

I look at it like this: it needs the maintenance done regardless right? Why not get it out of the equation first and know for sure?

 

[deanazoon]

Yeah I agree, but my brother is adament about finding out if its one particular spark plug or something. but the issue i cant duplicate so easily so i was like lets replace them all! i know spark plugs r cheap..
What is your definition of a full tune up, what should i get done and out of the way first?

 

[mc360]

i would start with the pgmfi main relay on the passenger side, its under the dash next to the glove box, pull off the side panel of the dash then unbolt the relay and disconnect it from the harness. pull the relay out of the car and take the plastic cover off and look at the solder joints, it might take a magnifying glass but if you see little cracks in the solder that is your part of your issue and easily fixed my resoldering the relay contacts.

 

[lethal6]

Plugs, wires, cap, rotor, fuel filter, pcv, valve adjustment (if needed depending on time/miles), air filter, and oil change. Personally, I would also do a coolant flush (should be done every other year or mileage dependent), brake fluid flush (should be done every other year religiously) if it were mine and I had no clue when they were done last. These last 2 aren't in line with your problems, but should be done for a healthy engine cooling system and to keep the brakes fresh. 2 of the most neglected areas of outside normal maintenance.

 

[deanazoon]

Can you expand on the names, like which plugs and wires, pcv stand for, valves on which part? I do the oil changes on time or early, I was told i got fluids replaced last time. Do you know ball park how much all this stuff is?

 

[mc360]

You probably shouldn't be doing much work on a car if you can figure out which "plugs and wires" need a tune up, he's talking spark plugs and spark plug wires which are tune up items. Pcv valve is a one way check valve used to vent crank case pressure, and the valves he's talking about adjusting are in the cylinder head and probably best left untouched by you

 

[deanazoon]

Thanks guys, I made an appointment at a popular honda shop on yelp. They even have loaner cars. they will charge like 60-120 for diagnostic. if its the ignitor, relay, or distributer, how much should those parts be?

 

[lethal6]

Depends on if they are going to use genuine OEM parts or knock of cheap stuff (which is most likely the case with a shop like this). I wouldn't recommend going outside OEM for the distributor (aftermarket ones have been known failures with compatibility to hondas), then again we haven't talked about the distributor needing replaced on your car and would be a couple hundred OEM.

Main relay for a good one should be $100-150 unless they go cheap. Ignition switch probably around the same. Hard to say. You could google oem parts for your car and get a base estimate.

 

[molsoncanadian]

I know for sure that the 1999-2000 civics were recalled for the ignition switch. I think 98' would have the same parts. The symptoms were that the engine would shut off unexpectedly while driving. And would not restart immediately. You would have to wait couple of minutes to restart. Also this typically occurs after car is nice n warm.
If these sound familiar, then go buy the electrical portion of your ignition switch, and have a mechanic put it in. Part will be close to 100 labour shall be about an hour.

Sent from my D2306 using Tapatalk

 

[deanazoon]

So I dropped the car off here: http://www.yelp.com/biz/acura-honda-connection-san-jose-4?start=40&sort_by=date_desc

Dave had the car for two days and said "I am sorry Deana, we found nothing, we had the fuel gage on it overnight we dont know whats wrong".

How is it possible that I cannot get a 5 star honda mech to tell me how to fix this car? I feel like im living through a rick and morty episode.

He asked 120$ for diagnosis. I dont wana pay that with a "maybe its this or maybe its that",

where should I start with this car? Theres got to be a way to test the parts that are faulty for faulty-ness, are they just not being thorough? the RPM is jumpy every time i drive the car, that is not an intermittent problem, the car wants to shut off while i drive it. It turns off on idle couple times a week and gets back on. It didnt turn on 3 weeks ago on a cold engine, and my brother told me to test each spark plug next time it does it. Dont they have tools to test each plug?

 

[lethal6]

Have your brother fix it if he knows so much.

If they can't get it to duplicate, they can't get it to duplicate. Until they do they can't narrow it down. Are you going to pay them to randomly test stuff YOU or your brother thinks it is?

 

[deanazoon]

No I dont trust them, I dont think they are diagnosing it with care. why is it when I drive the car the issues are happening, but when they are diagnosing it is not? cuz their not driving it, they should drive it home and back to the shop and half hour up and down to duplicate. its not gonna duplicate sitting in a shop.

 

[lethal6]

Did you inform them they can drive it for a length of time? Legally they can't just do that without your SIGNED permission and they most definitely can't just take it home overnight. You do understand how many legal issues that provides right? If they were to get into an accident after business hours it's YOUR insurance that takes the hit on your vehicle unless they have specific insurance to be driving customers vehicles outside operation times. MOST shops do not have this insurance as it is very very very expensive and not worth it in most cases.

There is a reason why the repair order has the mileage in and the mileage out. It's a legal thing. Why would the mechanic "drive it for a half hour up and down" if he isn't going to get paid for it. He has a family to feed and needs to stay on jobs that are actually going to have customers that pay but it sounds like you aren't one of those unless I read your not willing to pay comment right.

Sounds to me like they are diagnosing it the best they can with the amount of information provided and I can tell from someone that has been on their side of it exactly what the situation is providing and the outcome if it keeps going the way it is going.

Have you done the tune up on it or are you still chasing tails?

You are demanding that parts be tested but haven't even let them find out what those are. Either let them do their job or find another shop that will diagnose for free because that sounds like it is what you are shooting for. Little eye opener though, shops aren't going to diag for free and can't find the problem if they aren't allowed to diag. s**t doesn't just appear out of thin air. Either you keep telling them what you THINK it is, when you have absolutely NO knowledge about vehicle mechanics and let them chase hopes and dreams or let them do what they do and find it the way they know how. If they are a "FIVE STAR HONDA MECHANIC" like you say they are, they know what they are doing. It's isn't like they give that star rating away with the free prizes in the bottom of cereal boxes.

 

[deanazoon]

I think we are misunderstanding each other. I respect signing the agreement, I was not offered that option. I am not cheap I want to pay for a DIAGNOSIS. he said 120$ and that its going to take him more work, I fully agreed. I am going to have to pay it regardless of my opinion. I printed what I wrote to you guys and took it to him. Can you understand how frustrating it is for me that he comes back with NO diagnosis? He can keep it for a week if he needs to, im going to tell him that tomorrow. I have not done any tune ups yet because I was waiting to get it into a shop, I had to make an appointment to see these guys. I feel like if a mechanic gets a car like this, they know that its going to take elbow grease to get to the bottom. I just dont feel like its being taken care of as if it was their own car. I do want them to put in the time and effort to diagnose and days if they need to . That's what diagnosis is for. I am willing to pay for A diagnosis! that's the only point I am making. Hes going to tell me that it can be A, B, or C. That answer is not going to make me want to pay him for parts and labor. That's my opinion.

 

[mc360]

It is what it is, if you read a repair manual you will see one part can have multiple symptoms and one symptom can have multiple parts causing the issue, it's just the nature of the vehicles. Maybe take a ride with the mechanic so you know it's actually getting test driven