high compression vs. low compression

mike5

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im just crious
why do a lot of ppl seem to think that it is horrible to bosst a high compression engine? im pretty sure this topic has been covered, but i actaully want to hear some of those people and their reasons...thanks
i personally would boost a type r in a second
 

greenlx777

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I'm working on a B16 with a buddy of mine, and he just baught some 11:1 pistons, and we already have a T3, the problem is he might not be able to run on high psi because the compression ration is already sick...unless we find a think ass gasket...we were even considering putting 2...lol....anyways were gonna see how this turns out, were looking for rings right now, and then we can put it all together...
 


codyj86

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its ok to boost a high compression engine so long as it has been built up. i.e. rods. if i was building one i would also bore it out and sleeve it so you don't blow a cylider wall. the head gasket would also need to be stronger, i.e. copper. the main problem with building one is that most people don't build it up 1st and end up putting too much boost into it and blowing it up.
 

greenlx777

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codyj86 said:
its ok to boost a high compression engine so long as it has been built up. i.e. rods. if i was building one i would also bore it out and sleeve it so you don't blow a cylider wall. the head gasket would also need to be stronger, i.e. copper. the main problem with building one is that most people don't build it up 1st and end up putting too much boost into it and blowing it up.
:werd:

thats why its good to get some eagle rods like we did..
 


Handlebars

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codyj86 said:
its ok to boost a high compression engine so long as it has been built up. i.e. rods. if i was building one i would also bore it out and sleeve it so you don't blow a cylider wall. the head gasket would also need to be stronger, i.e. copper. the main problem with building one is that most people don't build it up 1st and end up putting too much boost into it and blowing it up.

no.

higher compression is usually not good for boost because of detonation, NOT piston or rod strength. that has to do with how much hp/rpm/stress is going on those components. read this article, http://www.hondaswap.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=29799 as he says it extremely well. what most n00bs dont get is that a turbo systems most important aspect is fuel management- tuning. and it is harder to tune a high compression motor than a low compression motor, even though you need to run more boost on a low c/r motor. it has to do with effective c/r, as outlined in the article.
 

Martin Racing Design

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handlebarsfsr said:
no.

higher compression is usually not good for boost because of detonation, NOT piston or rod strength. that has to do with how much hp/rpm/stress is going on those components. read this article, http://www.hondaswap.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=29799 as he says it extremely well. what most n00bs dont get is that a turbo systems most important aspect is fuel management- tuning. and it is harder to tune a high compression motor than a low compression motor, even though you need to run more boost on a low c/r motor. it has to do with effective c/r, as outlined in the article.
I knew you were going to pwn some fools here =)

Race gas is usually needed when running high psi/compression systems.
 

bklynEG

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i was waiting for that. i couldnt find the right words myself. thanks
 

mike5

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hmmm
yea u can run higher boost levels at low compression, but then again u can get a high compression engine and run lower boost levels which in turn equals the lower compression engine at a higher boost?
am i wrong?
 

greenlx777

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mike5 said:
hmmm
yea u can run higher boost levels at low compression, but then again u can get a high compression engine and run lower boost levels which in turn equals the lower compression engine at a higher boost?
am i wrong?
I'm not so sure that it balances out like that....
 

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mike5 said:
hmmm
yea u can run higher boost levels at low compression, but then again u can get a high compression engine and run lower boost levels which in turn equals the lower compression engine at a higher boost?
am i wrong?

yes you are. obviously you didnt read the article i posted. effective c/r- the static c/r plus the boost does NOT equal out. lower comp+ high boost has a lower effective c/r than high static c/r and low boost. lower effective c/r= less heat= less detonation= easier to tune.
 

mike5

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handlebarsfsr said:
yes you are. obviously you didnt read the article i posted. effective c/r- the static c/r plus the boost does NOT equal out. lower comp+ high boost has a lower effective c/r than high static c/r and low boost. lower effective c/r= less heat= less detonation= easier to tune.
yea i did read the article...
i dont think engine compression matters really, i mean at the end its all about the amoutn of boost, and the percision of ur tuning that determines performance
and lower compression is not necessarly better, it may be easier to tune but when ur off boost u wont get as much power, and turbo lag will be much worse then in higher compression
 

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thanks for another misinformed and only partially correct post from a n00b trying to explain a concept he doesnt grasp. if you dont think compression matters, then you dont know extremely basic engine theory. im not gonna sit here and try to explain it to you, its gonna take way way too long. ill just say you have a lot of reading to do. and please read before you make posts, not the other way around.
 

mike5

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aha take it ez bro
im saying it doesnt matter because if u have high or low compression, u can boost the engine either f**kin way...
the only thing that will vary is the amount of boost each engine can handle before the whole thing goes to hell:D and ur article supports what im saying 100%...so u mite wana do some reading urself
thanks for the flame and have a very good day
 

Inigo Montoya

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mike5 said:
aha take it ez bro
im saying it doesnt matter because if u have high or low compression, u can boost the engine either f**kin way...
the only thing that will vary is the amount of boost each engine can handle before the whole thing goes to hell:D and ur article supports what im saying 100%...so u mite wana do some reading urself
thanks for the flame and have a very good day
It truely is amazing that typing styling, grammar, and spelling reflects how intelligent a person is.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyhow, heres what Handles is talking about
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For example, two exactly the same motors, same build, miles, turbo, management system etc.

Except one of them has 8.5 C/R, and the other has 11 C/R.

Now they both turn up the boost.. 1 psi at a time...

8.5 CR Motor: 1 psi // 140 hp - 2 psi // 155 hp ... etc ... so it gains 15 hp per psi
11 CR Motor: 1 psi // 160 hp - 2 psi // 185 hp ... etc .. so it gains 25 hp per psi

However, the 11 CR motor is more likely (much much more likely) to detonate the fuel when it is not suppose to.
 

mike5

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I Cause Cancer said:
It truely is amazing that typing styling, grammar, and spelling reflects how intelligent a person is.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyhow, heres what Handles is talking about
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

For example, two exactly the same motors, same build, miles, turbo, management system etc.

Except one of them has 8.5 C/R, and the other has 11 C/R.

Now they both turn up the boost.. 1 psi at a time...

8.5 CR Motor: 1 psi // 140 hp - 2 psi // 155 hp ... etc ... so it gains 15 hp per psi
11 CR Motor: 1 psi // 160 hp - 2 psi // 185 hp ... etc .. so it gains 25 hp per psi

However, the 11 CR motor is more likely (much much more likely) to detonate the fuel when it is not suppose to.
lol i never denied any of that.... id prefer to boost a higher compression engine though....so take it ez and have a cookie
 

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mike5 said:
aha take it ez bro
im saying it doesnt matter because if u have high or low compression, u can boost the engine either f**kin way...
the only thing that will vary is the amount of boost each engine can handle before the whole thing goes to hell:D and ur article supports what im saying 100%...so u mite wana do some reading urself
thanks for the flame and have a very good day

there is so much more to boosting a motor than compression and when it will blow up.. im not even going to bother getting into them, as you have already made up your mind, and you have absolutely no evidence or reason to back up your claim other than your own reasoning. yes you can boost any motor with any compression. i never said you couldnt. however in the world of pump gas and streetability, a very high compression n/a motor is a poor choice to boost. effective compression is NOT equal to static compression, and it does NOT equal out. if you would like to believe it does, go for it and go blow up your $5000 itr motor.
 

mike5

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handlebarsfsr said:
there is so much more to boosting a motor than compression and when it will blow up.. im not even going to bother getting into them, as you have already made up your mind, and you have absolutely no evidence or reason to back up your claim other than your own reasoning. yes you can boost any motor with any compression. i never said you couldnt. however in the world of pump gas and streetability, a very high compression n/a motor is a poor choice to boost. effective compression is NOT equal to static compression, and it does NOT equal out. if you would like to believe it does, go for it and go blow up your $5000 itr motor.
if you had to pick between a GSR and a TYPE R motor to boost, which one would you pick? and which one do u believe u can force more power out of
 

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gsr. dispite the itr's higher compression, they dont make as much power boosted. the itr cams are too agressive, and thats really bad on a boosted motor for 2 reasons. depending on the turbo of choice, you either have too much backpressure in the manifold (small turbo) at high rpms, so the extremely hot exhaust gases are forced back into the cylinder (called reversion) which superheats the combustion chamber and causes detonation. if you have a big turbo, the large overlap of the itr cams cause boost pressure to leak out the open exhaust valve, which is obviously bad for power. the itr's compression is also so high that you get in a viscious cycle with the timing. you need to retard the timing with boost regardless, (that reduced detonation, but it also causes heat). you have to retard the timing so much in a boosted itr that you begin to heat the combustion chamber enough to cause the detonation you are trying to prevent.

a gsr, while still a high compression motor, is less than the itr, has cams far more suited to boost (gsr cams have been used on drag cars making upwards of 500 whp) and you can make the same, if not more power on a gsr than an itr, with a motor that costs far less than an itr, and is far more likely to live driven hard on pump gas than an itr. you can run the gsr quite a bit leaner than the itr, again, helping power. even if they cost the same id still pick a gsr over an itr any day of the week.
 

Ravage70

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im building a 11.5:1 d16 for boost

its all in the tuning no matter what ppl say (maybe some tricks of the trade)

retard it more and add more fuel and u got urself a beast
ive seen a ls/vtec twin turbo with 300whp run fine without detonation at 11.5

oh ya and an itr would be ur best bet for boosting, all u need are some cam gears in order to eliminate valve overlap
 

mike5

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hmm so much difference in opinions
its a pretty tough choice to make
 


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