1994 DX Coupe - Swap or Dump?

[CHILD]

Correct, kinda. I was misinformed again, my mistake. And the T2T4 transmission has a taller 5th gear that the M2T4, if we are comparing JDM LSD based transmissions.



None that I've found under $1600, but I don't have a list of suppliers. I left the Honda game when K swaps were going into these things.


Wouldn't the H22A be a more suitable motor to boost on a stock bottom end? And if you're going to swap out pistons in the B16, you could likely just sleeve the H22 for the same price or less?

I appreciate the input on K swaps, I will look into them. They look a little more tricky to fit than a Civic with a B / H / F swap and no A/C, but eh.

The T2T4 having a taller 5th gear means it accelerates slower. So they only good thing about that trans is the LSD.

Accord K24 motor for $800 and anybody can tell you that hmotors is not a cheap seller although they do sell some of the cleanest second hand motors around. http://www.hmotorsonline.com/shop/sc2000search.cgi?what=category&keyword=JDM USDM Engines&hit=30

the H22 isn't so suitable for boost because of the FRM sleeves...sleeving would help this issue, but in stock form, forget about it. Yes the cost of low compression b16 pistons would be around the same as sleeving a H22, but b16's can be had and swapped for much less than a H22 keeping the overall cost down. So it's debatable either way.

K's can be swapped in and retain power steering and a/c if you'd like, it just adds to the cost of the swap. the expense of a K swap is really it's only downside at the moment.

 

[Wreckless Hype]

Always a trip! Ordered an 02 sensor from RockAuto, since they're cheap enough, Denso is quality, and the one in the car was surely original. My socket wouldn't work, grabbed a friends split socket and tried to torque it off. After blasting it countless times with PB Blaster and trying to get it off with the socket, I bent the socket open so it wouldn't work. Pair of vice grips around the opening and a breaker bar, after torquing 1/8th turn each time, finally got it off.

2 weeks ago I take it to get it inspected. It expired 7/2011. Guy at the garage says, come back May 1st and I can give you a 2015 sticker (You can inspect 60 days before the date on the sticker in NJ, or it goes by the previous sticker, 7/2011 means I would have gotten a 7/2013 sticker - pointless)

Woo! May 1st! Been kinda rainy, damp, etc. Car always fires up fine when it's cold / damp / rainy, but the belt squeals a bit, goes away, no issue ever. Today it squealed again, put it in reverse, hit the edge of the driveway and smoke just pouring out of my hood. Alternator belt chewed itself up and wrapped itself around my drive axle. "Dafuq".

Autozone had new belt, sweet. Get home, reach my hand down to find bolts and sizes, didn't think to check the alternator wheel, completely seized. Wrapped new belt around the wheel to see if I could turn it, won't budge, awesome.

Pulled top bolt, pulled green connection and 10mm nut for wires (as I'm doing it, the battery connection falls and hits the battery terminal, spark, battery 80A fuse explodes, more awesome, my fault, wtf ever). Pull bottom 14mm nut off, attempt to budge alternator, nope.

Bottom bolt that runs through the alternator is completely seized, will not budge. Can't get 14mm wrench in to remove the whole bracket, been pounding the bolt with a punch and hammer, PB Blasted the hell out of it. Had to walk away before I light the bich on fire. Maybe I'll find an easy way to get it out, or I may be putting up a non-running (kinda) Coupe for sale!

 

[Wreckless Hype]

Pounded with a heavy tap and heavy sledge for an hour, no good. With the tap and sledge, mini sledge and crowbar to the top of the alternator, I went to town. End result, I won:

Inspection tomorrow. If it fails, there will be a Civic for sale.

 

[mymmeryloss]

 

[Wreckless Hype]

All previous attempts failed. Heat didn't work, this spray foam crap I got from a Subaru / Chrysler dealership when I had my WRX and did manifold studs (amazing, beat the hell out of PB Blaster) - didn't work, trying to rock the alternator back and forth to loosen it didn't work (wouldn't budge without some serious leverage).

Went caveman on that thing, didn't so much as pinch a wire; scuffed the pain on the inner fender but aside from hammering down through the top, use the engine mount as some leverage.

Wasn't 'clean' coming out, or 'proper', but the damn thing came out. Greased the bolt on the new one, anti-seized everything else, car runs awesome and doesn't surge when I stop at a light from 50-60. Now when everything else fails or blows up, at least the alternator will be a breeze to get off

 

[Robin...]

Damn...

 

[CHILD]

Damn that sucks. Glad you didn't end up setting it on fire

 

[Wreckless Hype]

Aaaaaand it passed.

 

[mymmeryloss]

 

[Wreckless Hype]

Just bumping my old thread about my new(er) Civic that may actually end up being a good platform for a swap. After rereading through this and getting a lot of info on the H swaps and K swaps, I've tilted towards a K. Also, seeing Child's build running is a motivator.

I'm still in the pre-pre stage of just window shopping and getting ideas together.

The idea is to boost a K, and I'd like to hit around 350-400hp with some nice torque, maybe 280-300 range if possible. Apparently a K24 with a Garret GT30R on pump gas can make 400hp and a bit over 350lb/ft at 14psi.

As I read more into the modern Honda builds with turbos, contrary to what I always learned, lowest compression is NOT the best. I stopped reading into boost setups years ago and never got real serious into it, but it looks like for these setups, it's better to go with a slightly bumped up compression, like 10:1 or 10.5:1 with a lower boost like 7 or 8 psi?

It looks like the stock crank on a K24 will be able to handle upwards of 5-600hp, some are saying this is as far as most would think of pushing it, I'm not looking to go that high, so I'd like to think that's safe.

The K24A2 from the TSX looks to have the best stock rated hp, better redline, and looks like the compression is where it would need to be pretty much to boost.

If I'm looking at this correctly, maybe replacing head studs, redoing the springs and retainers, swapping in an RBC IM and a better TB would be about all the work on the motor I'd need to do before jumping into fuel / air / tune.

Some mentioned using an RRC IM over an RBC, but there's TONS of threads on people using RBCs and loving them. Why would I want to use an RRC, if I were to argue in favor of it (not necessarily saying I WOULD want it)

Also, the stock Type S looks like a popular TB, but the ZDX TB gets honorable mentions and apparently works very well for this type of build?


If I'm correct in assuming I can get away with a stock motor for the most part (aside from some headwork), I COULD get a K24A2 swap into my car and run it for a while, get used to the feel of a heavier engine, work some suspension and braking around it while possibly picking up a spare head to work on / research more into parts?

Just trying to get my notes all in order and put pieces together on paper. Any info you guys would like to add would be VERY much appreciated!

 

[CHILD]

The idea is to boost a K, and I'd like to hit around 350-400hp with some nice torque, maybe 280-300 range if possible. Apparently a K24 with a Garret GT30R on pump gas can make 400hp and a bit over 350lb/ft at 14psi.

As I read more into the modern Honda builds with turbos, contrary to what I always learned, lowest compression is NOT the best. I stopped reading into boost setups years ago and never got real serious into it, but it looks like for these setups, it's better to go with a slightly bumped up compression, like 10:1 or 10.5:1 with a lower boost like 7 or 8 psi?

It looks like the stock crank on a K24 will be able to handle upwards of 5-600hp, some are saying this is as far as most would think of pushing it, I'm not looking to go that high, so I'd like to think that's safe.

The K24A2 from the TSX looks to have the best stock rated hp, better redline, and looks like the compression is where it would need to be pretty much to boost.

If I'm looking at this correctly, maybe replacing head studs, redoing the springs and retainers, swapping in an RBC IM and a better TB would be about all the work on the motor I'd need to do before jumping into fuel / air / tune.

Some mentioned using an RRC IM over an RBC, but there's TONS of threads on people using RBCs and loving them. Why would I want to use an RRC, if I were to argue in favor of it (not necessarily saying I WOULD want it)

Also, the stock Type S looks like a popular TB, but the ZDX TB gets honorable mentions and apparently works very well for this type of build?


If I'm correct in assuming I can get away with a stock motor for the most part (aside from some headwork), I COULD get a K24A2 swap into my car and run it for a while, get used to the feel of a heavier engine, work some suspension and braking around it while possibly picking up a spare head to work on / research more into parts?

Just trying to get my notes all in order and put pieces together on paper. Any info you guys would like to add would be VERY much appreciated!

Like you said you don't or wont need extra low compression to put out great nunbers with a K. Each motor's factory spec is actually a good starting point even with the less powerful k24a1/4/8s. Turbo accord k24a4 get up around the mid 400s completely stock.

Completely stock...including the head, is good for your power goals. When you want to go over 500, then start building it up.

The TSX k24a2 is the most stout from the factory, but it's completely unnecessary to start with to make the power you want. If it was a basic NA setup then sure it's great to start with. Being that it's a good motor, the price tag comes with it. When you consider a cheap crv/accord longblock can cost under a grand versus a tsx longblock being nearly 2 grand and less abundant, you'll put the tsx on the back burner lol. K20a2 and jdm k20a's can put out the same kind of power on boost as well, turbo or supercharged. You hit the same potential limits around the same points in all cases as well.

The debate between rbc and rrc has been ongoing. Most cases there is very little difference if any at all. The rbc has performed well for years and is half the price, so there's no point in getting the rrc unless you just want to spend 200 extra bucks. The zdx throttle body is a drive by wire TB. I don't remember what car this is for, but if it's earlier than an 8th gen civic, it's out of the question. The rsx type s TB will be fine for boost.

 

[Wreckless Hype]

Like you said you don't or wont need extra low compression to put out great nunbers with a K. Each motor's factory spec is actually a good starting point even with the less powerful k24a1/4/8s. Turbo accord k24a4 get up around the mid 400s completely stock.

Completely stock...including the head, is good for your power goals. When you want to go over 500, then start building it up.

The TSX k24a2 is the most stout from the factory, but it's completely unnecessary to start with to make the power you want. If it was a basic NA setup then sure it's great to start with. Being that it's a good motor, the price tag comes with it. When you consider a cheap crv/accord longblock can cost under a grand versus a tsx longblock being nearly 2 grand and less abundant, you'll put the tsx on the back burner lol. K20a2 and jdm k20a's can put out the same kind of power on boost as well, turbo or supercharged. You hit the same potential limits around the same points in all cases as well.

The debate between rbc and rrc has been ongoing. Most cases there is very little difference if any at all. The rbc has performed well for years and is half the price, so there's no point in getting the rrc unless you just want to spend 200 extra bucks. The zdx throttle body is a drive by wire TB. I don't remember what car this is for, but if it's earlier than an 8th gen civic, it's out of the question. The rsx type s TB will be fine for boost.

I appreciate you coming back to the thread to chime in, I trust your wealth of knowledge and was hoping you had something to say heh.

I think the ZDX TB is off the Acura ZDX by the sounds of it. I keep seeing the term J37 ZDX thrown around and the J37 ZDX takes me to the 3.7L ZDX by Acura. The Type S seems like it would be fine though, same with the RBC. Stupid simple, I'm fine with that. If it made sense to go with other options, I'd consider it, but I don't think I'm going that extreme to make the difference.

The more I read on the numbers, the more it seems like I could safely go higher in power. If I went with the A4, things start getting a little sketchy around 500 you're saying, and if I want 400 now, it leaves a good amount of room for improvement, unless I want 500. If I want to consider going with a larger turbo or more boost for higher numbers, the stout TSX would hold over better? I guess that's something to think about.

I've driven a 400hp STi and SRT-4 and I liked it. I've driven a 300hp MR-2 and it was quick for sure. I've also driven a 630hp Evo and about s**t my pants. I think the GT30R on lower boost and stock head with a tune should be a good place to start, but I guess I'd like to have the option to slap on a 35R, bump the boost, and maybe redo the intake / fuel system if I wanted to.

The other things I need to look into are the transmissions, etc. Obviously this is what's going to get my power down, but aside from being a fast car, I want it to be something I can daily and drive to work without running out of smooth gearing at 80mph on the highway. (Not saying it would!) I've ridden in some built Hondas with a bunch of different motors / trans setups and cruising in 5th gear at 75-80mph in some of them just seems like the car is always in race mode. Sometimes you just want to get to work

I know I'd also like to probably keep power steering if at all feasible. I just haven't checked it out as I want to get some of the basics figured out first and then work around it. I know there's way more stuff to check out on these than the B/H swaps and hopefully I can figure out what I need as I put things together in my head.

 

[TokyoSkies]

Man, plans sure changed for this thing quickly!

I was once going to do a k24 boost swap into an EJ8, but I've since left the Honda game, and don't plan on returning very much (maybe if I score a crazy deal on a stupid clean rolling chassis, or stock EJ8 or something..). Child is your guy if you're wanting any info at all about the K series. He's incredibly meticulous and thorough in his research, so trust on what he says. Dude is a walking K series/Honda encyclopedia!

That being said, 400whp in a boosted K24 with a GT30R is not at all outlandish, completely bone stock. Fuel management and tune are where it's at! Good luck with whichever route you decide on!

 

[Wreckless Hype]

Man, plans sure changed for this thing quickly!

I was once going to do a k24 boost swap into an EJ8, but I've since left the Honda game, and don't plan on returning very much (maybe if I score a crazy deal on a stupid clean rolling chassis, or stock EJ8 or something..). Child is your guy if you're wanting any info at all about the K series. He's incredibly meticulous and thorough in his research, so trust on what he says. Dude is a walking K series/Honda encyclopedia!

That being said, 400whp in a boosted K24 with a GT30R is not at all outlandish, completely bone stock. Fuel management and tune are where it's at! Good luck with whichever route you decide on!

Kind of, but not totally. I actually ended up dumping the old DX coupe. It wasn't a good platform, it was old and very worn, needed more work than I could give it. I'm using a 2000 EX Coupe platform now.

Looking into the K's, I love the build quality of the stock motors, they can just take more and provide more off the bat. They cost a bit more, but you get what you pay for by the sound of it.

I know the 30Rs and 35Rs were are really good upgrades for the Subaru lines when I had my Subaru. They have more issues with bigger turbos though, the piping on them are stupid long and lag is an issue. I love the short piping and reduced lag on these setups and hoping I can get something nice and peppy from this build.

I appreciate Child's info. His build is just ridiculous. Meticulous is an understatement, s*** is no joke. I don't want it to be like I'm here just to pick the guy's brain, but I appreciate the info.

Child, looking over your build, I don't know if things on your build list are preference or because that's what works for that swap. Obviously working off the same engine bay, but things like VTC gear, throttle body port match I assume is an efficiency thing, K20a2 half shaft, etc. I haven't even gotten to those kind of details yet. I'm just looking into the major components at this point, but I know I can't obviously get a build going without the little stuff. I'm sure I'll have some questions, I'll surely research what I can, but thanks for your input on this stuff!

 

[CHILD]

Let's see, the stock holding power on all of these K motors is around the same except for the little k20s, the two k20a3 motors in the minivan ep3 and base rsx. The tsx is stronger in ways and smoother but things still become a reliability issue over 500hp. There's been people with more than that that last and some don't, so to me it's not worth the risk. 400hp k swapped civic is going to move like that 600hp evo.

Things like the vtc gear come into play for squeezing out a bit more power. The commonly swapped k24s come with a 25*vtc gear. K20s have a 50*vtc. P2v clearance is important when adding a 50* to a k24. The cams will determine how much advance you can actually utilize for max power.
The port matching I did with my intake manifold is simply to make the throttle body worth using, or else there'd be a big wall creating turbulence and totally ruining the purpose of a larger throttle body.

A k20a2 half shaft MUST be used with a k24 swap. The k24 halfshafts are too long and would require a custom axle.

If you want more than about 500whp, then build the motor either initially or before upping the boost and turbo if you don't mind the down time. Built Ks commonly make 700+ quite easily. I just did a photoshoot of a 704whp tsx and the motor isn't even breaking a sweat.

 

[Wreckless Hype]

So actually reading into these things, it's hard to know what I need to look at and research further. Like, I used to do awesome taking notes in school, I could pic the info I needed and nail it on open note tests. With K swaps, I feel like kid staring at boobs for the first time, so much want, but how do I...

Reading about the VTC and what people are doing and how seems to make a lot more sense now that I looked it up. It seems like a lot of midrange gains are seen from the 50* dialed around 45. Is this the same route you went? I guess it seems to be the maximum setting to get away from valve to piston contact on over revs. Also, Hondata mentioned blocking off the EGR when running this setup, I guess the ability to rotate to 0 at idle helps it run cleaner? Interesting concept.

I get the concept of making the intake of air as smooth as possible, especially on forced induction engines. I just need to find parts that meet up properly and get them to place nice together.

I guess maybe in the end I'm not reading enough. I'm definitely going to have decide on the end power goal, because to swap and slap a turbo on for 400 is only going to hurt me if I decide to go near 500. Then I'll need to figure out the trans, how to get a sweet billet shifter setup like yours, Child (I can't STAND sloppy shift linkage), what I'll need to do for power steering, exhaust, engine management, etc.

Looking at the exhaust setups, it looks like the swap headers are for the sole purpose of dropping a K in an older chassis which is pretty sweet, but I haven't found too many turbo manifolds yet.

Really first and foremost, I'm looking more into the TSX engine, why it's stronger, and why people decide to start with that platform, much like the F20B vs H22 discussion held here a year or so ago. Reading some of the tuner magazines low downs on these engines, it seems like the reason people go K24A2 over other K24s in the same reason people go K20A2 over other K20s. I get it, likely the same reason we'd want to go B18C over other B18s, yadda yadda.

Hondata's article is pretty informative on what little things they do to get little bits of power here. I was obviously quite interested in the turbocharging section where MacMillan was working on the '01 Civic. Looks like they were close to 500hp potential, changed rods and pistons, Type S exhaust camshaft, 3 inch exhaust (woof), and used a T3/04e turbo on an unfinished tune. A lot of the articles I see on that turbo, when compared to the GT30R says the 30 will spin easier, but they're about identical in the aspect where it counts to make power.

Such good stuff. Learning all the new stuff is like a little kid working on a word search

 

[CHILD]

a lot of midrange gains are seen from the 50* dialed around 45. Is this the same route you went? I guess it seems to be the maximum setting to get away from valve to piston contact on over revs. Also, Hondata mentioned blocking off the EGR when running this setup, I guess the ability to rotate to 0 at idle helps it run cleaner?

I'll need to figure out the trans, how to get a sweet billet shifter setup like yours, Child (I can't STAND sloppy shift linkage), what I'll need to do for power steering, exhaust, engine management, etc.

I haven't found too many turbo manifolds yet.

Really first and foremost, I'm looking more into the TSX engine, why it's stronger, and why people decide to start with that platform

Hondata's article is pretty informative

The VTC is constantly advancing and retarding the intake cam for maximum efficiency while you drive. A 50*vtc is actually just moving from a -25* up to +25* advance. 45* is the max for a stock 04-05 tsx. A 06-08 tsx clears the full 50*. Based on the individual setup, you may need more or less cam advance for peak performance. Yes, I went with the 50* since I'm keeping an oem internal setup and it's already known that there's a bunch of midrange to take advantage of in stock form.

For the billet shifter, there's none other than ktuned. Hybrid racing has a pretty solid shifter themselves but the true solid feel comes from the shifter cable bushings and shifter springs. For power steering, the power steering kit from hybrid racing, exhaust you may need to fab a downpipe if you don't go with a full kit, engine management is kpro, AEM EMS, or Ktuner unless you're rich as hell and you can buy MoTec.

Turbo manifolds, sheesh, go-autoworks has some, full-race, and others. Most are sidewinder setups but there's plenty.

The tsx is like the b18c-R of K series. Most aggressive stock cams (06-08), lighter crank and better balanced for smooth operation, oil cooler port ready to accept a k20 cooler, makes over 200hp and 166tq stock with one of the worst flowing heads. Can directly swap a prb (k20a2) head which flows much better, oversized intake valves.... It's just the most stout motor next to the k20a type R. That's why I chose it, to have the baddest stock motor possible and enjoy hondas reliability.

 

[cuetip]

I would say u have the d15 already why not pull it and rebuild it, then the money you do save get that car up to maintenance to pass inspection

 

[Wreckless Hype]

We're far past the D15 That shipped has sailed. I sold the DX a couple months back and picked up a 2000 EX with a D16Y8 in it. By no means is it a bad motor, am I'm not pulling it any time soon. Putting away some cash, doing some reading and will eventually do a swap. There's just a lot of info to digest and weigh out.

 

[CHILD]

We're far past the D15 That shipped has sailed. I sold the DX a couple months back and picked up a 2000 EX with a D16Y8 in it. By no means is it a bad motor, am I'm not pulling it any time soon. Putting away some cash, doing some reading and will eventually do a swap. There's just a lot of info to digest and weigh out.

Weigh this, 40 roll, my bolt on k24 against a b16a3 delsol turbocharged.....no contest lol. By 60 I had nearly 2 cars on him and continued to stretch it out. I'm happy with my K