Health Care Reform

RonJ

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In the end if this is not gutted by the supreme court or repealed it will lead to a single payer health care system like Canada and EU. May take ten to twenty years but it will happen.

Before we get to a single payer system, this overhaul will force out health insurance companies who already work on low margins. They are going to do it by controlling their rate increases while forcing increased costs from the mandates. The Obama plan is to slowly force out private insurance companies in favor of more Medicare and eventually a government single payer system.

If you think the Government run health care is the answer and everyone will be covered think again!




The Medicare denial rate found in the study was, on a weighted average basis, roughly 1.7 times that of all of the private carriers combined (99,025 divided by 2,447,216 is 4.05%; 6.85% divided by 4.05% =1.69).
The fact remains that many other developed countries have a better health care system (as measured by healthier people) yet pay less for it.
 

LowNotSlow

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So you must have some car insurance that covers you if you get in an accident with an uninsured driver?

Or in your state, is having car insurance completely not mandatory? If so, are you fined if you get into an accident and don't have insurance? What percentage of NH drivers are uninsured?
insurance isn't mandatory in NH. I don't know how many are uninsured, I've never seen a poll.
 


RonJ

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Crazy Democrat :lol:

was that before or after this great bill was passed?
Narrow-minded Republican.:lol:

During the debate of the Bill. Medical schools have been well aware of changes that would be dictated by the Bill and had begun to address those issues in advance.
 

RonJ

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insurance isn't mandatory in NH. I don't know how many are uninsured, I've never seen a poll.
Are there penalties for not having car insurance if you get into an accident and are at fault?
 


oc_civic

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I respectfully disagree. Having more insured people should create a large enough pool of healthy people to lower the average cost of insurance for everyone. In addition, it should also substantially reduce costs for expensive emergency room visits by the uninsured that taxpayers are now paying for. Now do I think the Bill is the end all -- No. It has problems, but I think it begins to set up a better framework than we currently have.
you dont f**king get it.. YES having more people use health insurance IS good.. YES more people will make each cost less.. BUT f**king FORCING ME TO BUY IT IS GROSSLY UNETHICAL...

see i THINK that is what you miss.. the ends do NOT justify the means.. this nation was founded on FREEDOM.. BASIC freedoms and choices..

you can make EVERYTHING more efficient by removing free choice.. BUT THAT IS NOT AMERICAN.. that is NOT what WE are about..

want good cheap health care? FORCE DOCTORS TO CHARGE $10 to fix you no matter whats wrong with you.. FORCE colleges to teach medicine for $500 a year.. you will laugh.. and say thats nuts you cant FORCE those PRIVATE bodies to do things like that.. and you know what.. you are RIGHT.. just like you can not FORCE me to buy health care..

just because its "good" (subjective) does not mean its RIGHT... when you remove freedom in the sake of the "greater good" this country.. and what it stands for.. DIES...
 

Mr. Jollypants

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This is starting to get heated. Let's cool it down guys.
 

oc_civic

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see what is being missed is this...

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THIS MAKES IT "BETTER" OR NOT..

the problem is FORCING the american public into buying something so that others dont have to pay as much is BULLSHIT....

I WANT A BRAND NEW CAR.. THE GOV SHOULD MAKE US ALL BUY BRAND NEW CARS EVERY 5 YEARS...

it would make them cheaper..
it would insure we have the latest and safest vehicles..
it would lower pollution by having the best emission fighting technologies..
and so on...

BUT ITS UNFUCKING ETHICAL!
the argument is NOT that this wont help.. the argument is that its WRONG...i do NOT have insurance.. i can not afford it.. this will likely benefit me.. BUT I AM STILL %100 AGAINST IT BECAUSE ITS WRONG..
get it?
 

MR99si

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The fact remains that many other developed countries have a better health care system (as measured by healthier people) yet pay less for it.
Why is it that people like The premier of Canada's east coast province had heart surgery in the United States not to long ago? Canada has such a great health care system right?



A little read for you:


The World Health Organization (WHO), that’s who. A report released in 2000 by the WHO that ranks the United States healthcare system at 37th in the world is responsible for the current misinformation being spread by the President and congressional Democrats.

In the World Health Report 2000 the WHO set out to rank the healthcare systems of 191 countries from best to worst. For many, myself excluded, the first time the results of the WHO report gained their attention was during Michael Moore’s propaganda film SiCKO. Moore used the US’s ranking of 37th on the WHO index to try and convince viewers that Cuba has a far superior healthcare system to the United States. Some people actually believed it.

What Michael Moore, President Obama, and congressional Democrats fail to provide along with the rank number when promoting government-run healthcare is what the WHO used to arrive at these numbers. In 2008 Glen Whitman of the Cato Institute released a paper that explains the WHO’s methodology in terms that average Americans can understand found here: http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf

The explanation of the WHO’s report is not very difficult to understand. Think “redistribution of health”. The index uses five factors to come up with an “Overall Attainment” rank for the countries: Health Level, Responsiveness, Health Distribution, Responsiveness Distribution, and Financial Fairness. The first two factors are legitimate, but the last three make no sense in measuring quality of healthcare.

Notice that I highlighted the word Distribution in two of the above factors. These two factors are included to measure how healthcare is distributed to the population of a given country. That’s right, they don’t measure the quality of the healthcare, they measure if poor people have the same health level and responsiveness as the rich.

The example used in the Cato paper is as follows:

Suppose, for instance, that Country A has health responsiveness that is “excellent” for most citizens but merely “good” for some disadvantaged groups, while Country B has responsiveness that is uniformly “poor” for everyone. Country B would score higher than Country A in terms of responsiveness distribution, despite Country A having better responsiveness than Country B for even its worst-off citizens. The same point applies
to the distribution of health level.

So how exactly does measuring a country’s distribution of healthcare help when measuring healthcare quality? And how does this show that the United States has inferior healthcare to Costa Rica? Your guess is as good as anyone’s.

The next factor is Financial Fairness which attempts to determine what a “fair” level of healthcare expenditures is for households based on their income. This factor is also tied to distribution because if there is a wide diversity of income levels and healthcare expense levels distributed throughout a country (as is the case in the United States) then the Financial Fairness grade is worse. The Financial Fairness grade (25% of the overall grade) of the ideal country would be one where the percentage of household income spent on healthcare would be the same for all income levels. This can only happen when “the rich” pay more for healthcare even when they use the same amount or less than the poor. An outcome like this is more easily attained when a country’s government distributes payments for healthcare using tax dollars. Tax dollars which come from the country’s rich citizens, not the poor. The global bureaucrats behind the WHO have essentially tipped the scales of their index to favor countries with a single-payer healthcare system because of their definition of what “fairness” is. Again there is no measurement of the quality of healthcare received, just the equality or inequality of healthcare distribution. So much for shifting “from an ideological discourse on health policy to a more [scientific] one,” as the WHO has claimed to have done with this index.

The final aspect of the WHO ranking that gets the US to 37th is the performance of our healthcare system based on how much money is spent. One more time here, the quality of healthcare is not measured, the performance of the healthcare system based on the amount spent is what is measured. Glen Whitman uses the following example:

When Costa Rica ranks higher than the United States in the OP ranking (36 versus 37), that does not mean Costa Ricans get better health care than Americans. Americans most likely get better health care—just not as much better as could be expected given how much more America spends.

Anyone paying attention has heard President Obama or some other Democrat say that we pay more in this country for healthcare than any other country and yet we are still ranked 37th in the world. However, when looking at how the rankings were determined, it becomes clear that the global bureaucrats at the WHO are telling the United States our ranking did not suffer in spite of the amount spent on healthcare expenses, rather it suffered because we spend so much and they think our system should still be better. This is Obama’s basis for pushing to overhaul our entire healthcare system?

It is pretty bad when the Democrat party and the President of the United States start using the same points as an America-hating propagandist to try and move their agenda forward. The World Health Organization’s rankings are clearly ideologically based and were intended to be embarrassing to the United States, yet the WHO index is cited by leading Democrats and the President all the time. Still Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer have the nerve to call people questioning them unamerican!
 

Mr. Jollypants

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no name calling no personal insults..

heated discussion no problem.. ;)
I'm just trying to keep it civil :lol:

I'm for it because it allows me and my family to finally get affordable health care. My mother and father were paying 200 bucks a month on health care that didn't even include dental, and they've only used the health care once or twice within the past year, but yet premiums kept rising.

I think this is one of those bills that we'll see how well it works over a period of 10 years, not 2. It still helps bringing the cost of health care down because now those of us paying for it aren't also having to pay those who go to the hospital, get treated, and stick em with the bill. Now the hospital has to charge more to cover the expenses. But with this bill, there's not going to be as much of this, which will allow health care to become less expensive, it will make companies provide health and stop being cheap asses.
 

Mr. Jollypants

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Why is it that people like The premier of Canada's east coast province had heart surgery in the United States not to long ago? Canada has such a great health care system right?



A little read for you:


The World Health Organization (WHO), that’s who. A report released in 2000 by the WHO that ranks the *snip*
I stopped reading after it's a 10 year old report.
 

RonJ

Banned
you dont f**king get it.. YES having more people use health insurance IS good.. YES more people will make each cost less.. BUT f**king FORCING ME TO BUY IT IS GROSSLY UNETHICAL...

see i THINK that is what you miss.. the ends do NOT justify the means.. this nation was founded on FREEDOM.. BASIC freedoms and choices..

you can make EVERYTHING more efficient by removing free choice.. BUT THAT IS NOT AMERICAN.. that is NOT what WE are about..

want good cheap health care? FORCE DOCTORS TO CHARGE $10 to fix you no matter whats wrong with you.. FORCE colleges to teach medicine for $500 a year.. you will laugh.. and say thats nuts you cant FORCE those PRIVATE bodies to do things like that.. and you know what.. you are RIGHT.. just like you can not FORCE me to buy health care..

just because its "good" (subjective) does not mean its RIGHT... when you remove freedom in the sake of the "greater good" this country.. and what it stands for.. DIES...
see what is being missed is this...

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THIS MAKES IT "BETTER" OR NOT..

the problem is FORCING the american public into buying something so that others dont have to pay as much is BULLSHIT....

I WANT A BRAND NEW CAR.. THE GOV SHOULD MAKE US ALL BUY BRAND NEW CARS EVERY 5 YEARS...

it would make them cheaper..
it would insure we have the latest and safest vehicles..
it would lower pollution by having the best emission fighting technologies..
and so on...

BUT ITS UNFUCKING ETHICAL!
the argument is NOT that this wont help.. the argument is that its WRONG...i do NOT have insurance.. i can not afford it.. this will likely benefit me.. BUT I AM STILL %100 AGAINST IT BECAUSE ITS WRONG..
get it?
Anthony, I think I do get it. All of your comments sum up to say that you don't want ANY form of government. Period. You could save yourself a lot of time typing but just saying this in all of your posts. The fact of the matter is that we do have a government whose function is to facilitate what is best for the majority of its citizens (=democratic government). That's what this Health Care Reform Bill seeks to do, like it or not.
 

oc_civic

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I'm just trying to keep it civil :lol:

I'm for it because it allows me and my family to finally get affordable health care. My mother and father were paying 200 bucks a month on health care that didn't even include dental, and they've only used the health care once or twice within the past year, but yet premiums kept rising.

I think this is one of those bills that we'll see how well it works over a period of 10 years, not 2. It still helps bringing the cost of health care down because now those of us paying for it aren't also having to pay those who go to the hospital, get treated, and stick em with the bill. Now the hospital has to charge more to cover the expenses. But with this bill, there's not going to be as much of this, which will allow health care to become less expensive, it will make companies provide health and stop being cheap asses.
ok just to make things more basic..

Problem: Americans can not afford health care

Solution A: Address the actual PROBLEM which is $2000 staplers, $150 aspirin, $44 piece of gauze... step in and REGULATE health care in the same sense that banking and other institutions are regulated... Also cut down on BS lawsuits against health care professionals..

Solution B: ALLOW these assholes to continue to charge whatever ridiculous amounts they want.. and FORCE the american public to buy health care even if they don't want it.. thus throwing MORE money at an already BROKEN f**kED UP system...

do you see what im saying here? option B COMPLETELY ignores the REAL problem, and provides only a band aid....
 

Mr. Jollypants

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How do we know that Solution A isn't in the bill? The bill alone is 2000 pages, all we've heard about on the news or being reported by the news is the tip of the iceberg.

Solution A is also somewhat being covered by the news. Insurance companies are no longer allowed to tell people they stop covering them because it's getting too expensive. How would you feel if your mother got cancer, she has been going to the hospital for the last 6 months to fight the cancer, then all of a sudden, she gets a letter or call from her insurance company saying she has to start paying the bill because she's costing them too much money? This bill stops insurance companies from doing that.
 
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oc_civic

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Anthony, I think I do get it. All of you comments sum up to say that you don't want ANY form of government. Period. You could save yourself a lot of time typing but just saying this in all of your posts. The fact of the matter is that we do have a government whose function is to facilitate what is best for the majority of its citizens (=democratic government). That's what this Health Care Reform Bill seeks to do, like it or not.
when have i said i want NO government.. please.. do show me where i posted that..

OUR GOVERNMENT f**kS UP EVERYTHING THEY TOUCH.. THE LAST THING I NEED IS THEM RUNNING MORE s**t...

want a list of the government run programs that are f**ked up?

i want a government that does one thing.. protects the people and observes the constitution.... what are are seeing now is a country that started in "this" way and through the slow addition of people who want everything for nothing has grown into a totally different nation.. instead of asking what our nation is going to do for us.. we need to focus on what WE can do for ourselves..
 

MR99si

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I stopped reading after it's a 10 year old report.
Good for you!

The fact is liberals are still using these numbers today (and they're false), the U.S. has the finest health care system in the world....well at least we did.
 

oc_civic

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How do we know that Solution A isn't in the bill? The bill alone is 2000 pages, all we've heard about on the news or being reported by the news is the tip of the iceberg.
the problem is FORCING a FREE population to BUY something.... that concept is completely foreign to me, and again completely ignores the REAL problem.. if you address the real problem you would not even have to worry about forcing people to get insurance because it would be affordable...
 

Mr. Jollypants

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the problem is FORCING a FREE population to BUY something.... that concept is completely foreign to me, and again completely ignores the REAL problem.. if you address the real problem you would not even have to worry about forcing people to get insurance because it would be affordable...
But your solution A does the same thing, you start going against free trade and capitalism, which this country was founded up and has grown from, capitalism. I have more of an issue of a country stepping in and telling me what they think I should make, how much I should charge for my services.

Yes, they should regulate them in SOME fashion, but not completely stepping in and saying, wow, this is too much, charge this amount for this product/service or else.
 

Hecz

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..

OUR GOVERNMENT f**kS UP EVERYTHING THEY TOUCH.. THE LAST THING I NEED IS THEM RUNNING MORE s**t...



.
Yes, and this is only the calm before the storm. :(
 

Mr. Jollypants

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Good for you!

The fact is liberals are still using these numbers today (and they're false), the U.S. has the finest health care system in the world....well at least we did.
Finest health care system in the world? I went to 4 different doctors and each one had a different prognosis, 2 recommended surgery, 1 recommended medication and one told me it would go away after awhile. :roll: Very good health care system.
 


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