Health Care Reform

RonJ

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Why is it that people like The premier of Canada's east coast province had heart surgery in the United States not to long ago? Canada has such a great health care system right?



A little read for you:


The World Health Organization (WHO), that’s who. A report released in 2000 by the WHO that ranks the United States healthcare system at 37th in the world is responsible for the current misinformation being spread by the President and congressional Democrats.

In the World Health Report 2000 the WHO set out to rank the healthcare systems of 191 countries from best to worst. For many, myself excluded, the first time the results of the WHO report gained their attention was during Michael Moore’s propaganda film SiCKO. Moore used the US’s ranking of 37th on the WHO index to try and convince viewers that Cuba has a far superior healthcare system to the United States. Some people actually believed it.

What Michael Moore, President Obama, and congressional Democrats fail to provide along with the rank number when promoting government-run healthcare is what the WHO used to arrive at these numbers. In 2008 Glen Whitman of the Cato Institute released a paper that explains the WHO’s methodology in terms that average Americans can understand found here: http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf

The explanation of the WHO’s report is not very difficult to understand. Think “redistribution of health”. The index uses five factors to come up with an “Overall Attainment” rank for the countries: Health Level, Responsiveness, Health Distribution, Responsiveness Distribution, and Financial Fairness. The first two factors are legitimate, but the last three make no sense in measuring quality of healthcare.

Notice that I highlighted the word Distribution in two of the above factors. These two factors are included to measure how healthcare is distributed to the population of a given country. That’s right, they don’t measure the quality of the healthcare, they measure if poor people have the same health level and responsiveness as the rich.

The example used in the Cato paper is as follows:

Suppose, for instance, that Country A has health responsiveness that is “excellent” for most citizens but merely “good” for some disadvantaged groups, while Country B has responsiveness that is uniformly “poor” for everyone. Country B would score higher than Country A in terms of responsiveness distribution, despite Country A having better responsiveness than Country B for even its worst-off citizens. The same point applies
to the distribution of health level.

So how exactly does measuring a country’s distribution of healthcare help when measuring healthcare quality? And how does this show that the United States has inferior healthcare to Costa Rica? Your guess is as good as anyone’s.

The next factor is Financial Fairness which attempts to determine what a “fair” level of healthcare expenditures is for households based on their income. This factor is also tied to distribution because if there is a wide diversity of income levels and healthcare expense levels distributed throughout a country (as is the case in the United States) then the Financial Fairness grade is worse. The Financial Fairness grade (25% of the overall grade) of the ideal country would be one where the percentage of household income spent on healthcare would be the same for all income levels. This can only happen when “the rich” pay more for healthcare even when they use the same amount or less than the poor. An outcome like this is more easily attained when a country’s government distributes payments for healthcare using tax dollars. Tax dollars which come from the country’s rich citizens, not the poor. The global bureaucrats behind the WHO have essentially tipped the scales of their index to favor countries with a single-payer healthcare system because of their definition of what “fairness” is. Again there is no measurement of the quality of healthcare received, just the equality or inequality of healthcare distribution. So much for shifting “from an ideological discourse on health policy to a more [scientific] one,” as the WHO has claimed to have done with this index.

The final aspect of the WHO ranking that gets the US to 37th is the performance of our healthcare system based on how much money is spent. One more time here, the quality of healthcare is not measured, the performance of the healthcare system based on the amount spent is what is measured. Glen Whitman uses the following example:

When Costa Rica ranks higher than the United States in the OP ranking (36 versus 37), that does not mean Costa Ricans get better health care than Americans. Americans most likely get better health care—just not as much better as could be expected given how much more America spends.

Anyone paying attention has heard President Obama or some other Democrat say that we pay more in this country for healthcare than any other country and yet we are still ranked 37th in the world. However, when looking at how the rankings were determined, it becomes clear that the global bureaucrats at the WHO are telling the United States our ranking did not suffer in spite of the amount spent on healthcare expenses, rather it suffered because we spend so much and they think our system should still be better. This is Obama’s basis for pushing to overhaul our entire healthcare system?

It is pretty bad when the Democrat party and the President of the United States start using the same points as an America-hating propagandist to try and move their agenda forward. The World Health Organization’s rankings are clearly ideologically based and were intended to be embarrassing to the United States, yet the WHO index is cited by leading Democrats and the President all the time. Still Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer have the nerve to call people questioning them unamerican!

You are clearly completely missing the entire point of the Health Care problem and how the Health Care Reform Bill attempts to address the problem. I never said that U.S. medical professionals and their technology were bad. U.S. physicians are some of the best trained in the world. And our medical technology is second to none. The problem is that MANY Americans don't have access to these advanced (expensive) professionals and technologies for a variety of reasons. This issue has made Americans less healthy on the average than people from other developed countries, where access to health care is much higher and the cost is less. Therefore, Americans pay more money to be less healthy. Are you happy with such a system? That would be like saying that you are happy to pay more for a car part that is inferior to a better less expensive car part.
 

Mr. Jollypants

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How come no one has mentioned Japan's health care system, just Canadas? Japan has a universal health care system, and the costs are alot less than ours.

The Health care system in Japan is one of the best in the world. Japan provides healthcare services, including screening examinations for particular diseases at no direct cost to the patient, prenatal care, and infectious disease control, are provided by national and local governments. Payment for personal medical services is offered through a universal health care insurance system that provides relative equality of access, with fees set by a government committee. People without insurance through employers can participate in a national health insurance program administered by local governments. Patients are free to select physicians or facilities of their choice and cannot be denied coverage. Hospitals, by law must be run as non-profit and managed by physicians. For profit corporations are not allowed to own or operate hospitals.
 


RonJ

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when have i said i want NO government.. please.. do show me where i posted that..

OUR GOVERNMENT f**kS UP EVERYTHING THEY TOUCH.. THE LAST THING I NEED IS THEM RUNNING MORE s**t...

It's built into nearly everything you say. It is implied by your comments. For example, see capitalized text above.

i want a government that does one thing.. protects the people and observes the constitution....

I agree. Where does the Health Care Reform Bill deviate from this principle?
 

oc_civic

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But your solution A does the same thing, you start going against free trade and capitalism, which this country was founded up and has grown from, capitalism. I have more of an issue of a country stepping in and telling me what they think I should make, how much I should charge for my services.

Yes, they should regulate them in SOME fashion, but not completely stepping in and saying, wow, this is too much, charge this amount for this product/service or else.
you know.. some common sense regulations would go a LONG way.. there could be legislation JUST in regards to gross upmarking of common goods.. the whole aspirin thing is an ideal example..

its NOT that you are saying you HAVE to charge this amount.. it is instead saying "you can not take an item that costs $10 for an entire bottle and in turn sell ONE pill for $150"

the government already regulates our free trade with things like anti monopoly laws. these would be similar..
 


oc_civic

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I agree. Where does the Health Care Reform Bill deviate from this principle?
if tomorrow the government decides
"cars from 2005 and up are FAR safer, and produce less pollution than earlier vehicles"

what is the difference between them FORCING you to buy a new car based on the same principles.. i KNOW that it is a GROSS deviation from health care but same concept.. "this is better for everyone so everyone has to buy into it" it appears to me that FORCING me to buy health care does a fairly good job at removing my personal freedoms.. what else can they FORCE me to do based on the greater good... its all about TAKING from those who produce and giving to those that dont...
 

Mr. Jollypants

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if tomorrow the government decides
"cars from 2005 and up are FAR safer, and produce less pollution than earlier vehicles"

what is the difference between them FORCING you to buy a new car based on the same principles.. i KNOW that it is a GROSS deviation from health care but same concept.. "this is better for everyone so everyone has to buy into it" it appears to me that FORCING me to buy health care does a fairly good job at removing my personal freedoms.. what else can they FORCE me to do based on the greater good... its all about TAKING from those who produce and giving to those that dont...
It creates competition between insurance companies. It will now allow you to have health insurance, and will allow your taxes to go somewhere else besides paying for the bills of people who can't afford insurance but go to the hospital anyway.
 

oc_civic

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How are they fundamentally different? Your taxes are paying for a bunch of projects and services that you don't want, right?
my taxes DO go towards a bunch of bullshit projects.. BUT they ALSO go towards things i feel are necessary to us being a free safe nation in the world.... police, military, etc.. if we all stopped paying taxes completely it would make things like the military very difficult..

The government forcing you to pay taxes is illegal.
i acknowledge that but i have no issue paying taxes.. i WISH our taxes did NOT go to fund a lot fo the BS that they fund but in that instance i take the good with the bad..
 

oc_civic

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It creates competition between insurance companies. It will now allow you to have health insurance, and will allow your taxes to go somewhere else besides paying for the bills of people who can't afford insurance but go to the hospital anyway.
again....

i am not saying the bill wont start to help....and to be blunt i would not even be that against SOME form of health care reform.. bill whatever.. but the fact that it FORCES me to BUY INTO ANOTHER f**kED UP system.. is what i take issue with.. if it were up to me i would opt out of things like social security.. i STRONGLY dislike government meddling as they have already proven the inability to manage things..

want gov run health care? FIX welfare FIX social security, etc.. FIX these BROKEN systems and SHOW you can faithfully run things.. and i would maybe be less against it.. but they have shown NO ability to manage anything..
 

Mr. Jollypants

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You aren't being forced to buy insurance until 2014. Why don't you wait until 2013 to see how the health care system has changed to start making a decision?

The problem is this. You have people who don't want the government controlling a lot of things, so the government doesn't, but then the same people b***h and whine when things start to get out of control cost wise, or corruption wise. So it's a double edged sword for the government.
 

RonJ

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my taxes DO go towards a bunch of bullshit projects.. BUT they ALSO go towards things i feel are necessary to us being a free safe nation in the world.... police, military, etc.. if we all stopped paying taxes completely it would make things like the military very difficult..
Every U.S. citizen probably has a different list of items funded by taxes that he/she agrees and disagrees with. Yet we all pay the full amount of taxes owed, right? How is the Health Care Reform Bill fundamentally different?
 

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so this bill passing is going to f**k me in the ass. The plan is to tax me so much for using Tricare that it will be cheaper for me to buy into insurance. Why the f**k should i pay for somthing i earned? The retired military community is going to get f**ked hard core on this one. way to go washington dc !!! :roll:
 

buzzbombtom

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an example of our faild healt care system as run by our gov. the VA, ask any vet from any war or any conflict how they rate their VA care..... ron the difference between health and auto insurance is that driving is a privlage and if you choose to drive you must be insured, but non drivers are not required to have auto insurance, the health care is a bit different, in the sense that its REQUIRED that we have the insurance. im am currently working on an article that i encourage all you to read, pm me wit an email and i will send it to you.
 

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an example of our faild healt care system as run by our gov. the VA, ask any vet from any war or any conflict how they rate their VA care......

the care i recieve at the VA hosipital isnt bad. The problem with the VA is they are underfunded by the Obama administration.
 

MR99si

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You are clearly completely missing the entire point of the Health Care problem and how the Health Care Reform Bill attempts to address the problem. I never said that U.S. medical professionals and their technology were bad. U.S. physicians are some of the best trained in the world. And our medical technology is second to none. The problem is that MANY Americans don't have access to these advanced (expensive) professionals and technologies for a variety of reasons. This issue has made Americans less healthy on the average than people from other developed countries, where access to health care is much higher and the cost is less. Therefore, Americans pay more money to be less healthy. Are you happy with such a system? That would be like saying that you are happy to pay more for a car part that is inferior to a better less expensive car part.

You're totally misinformed.

The fact is that most Americans are insured and have full access to our health care. People that are uninsured have access to programs like Medicaid. Liberals claim that 30 million don't have access to health care and they falsely make claims that this monstrosity of of bill will cover them. The fact is that of those so called 30 million a good number are young people that simply choose not to purchase it even though they can afford it and a very large number are illegal aliens.

I pay a good amount for my wife and kids since I am self employed and yes I am very happy with it. Could the cost be lower yes however I will take it any day over a single payer system.
 

Mr. Jollypants

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RonJ

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...ron the difference between health and auto insurance is that driving is a privlage and if you choose to drive you must be insured, but non drivers are not required to have auto insurance, the health care is a bit different, in the sense that its REQUIRED that we have the insurance
For all intents and purposes, there is likely little difference between health and car insurance. (1) Most people drive, so most people need insurance. (2) While the Health Care Reform Bill mentions fines for people who do not join the plan, there is a lot of discussion about whether this would really be enforced. I am reading that it will not be enforced, at least for many years. (3) Driving is indeed a privilege that you can opt out of, but can you opt out of getting sick? This is an important distinction.
 


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