Health Care Reform

[joe7987]

The story is a fictional account based on a possible true story meant to appeal to the emotions rather than logic. Does nothing for me. And I'm with Jason. If you invest properly, you'll be fine. My parents aren't living off of a 40k a year income. They're closer to the 200k bracket. I know exactly how the economy / government is effecting them, as I am directly affected by it. We don't keep things like that secret in the family. If we're going through a tough time, we're going through a tough time, and vice versa. So if you're thinking that I'm simply ignorant of what people in the middle upper class / upper class income bracket are going through, this is not the case. On the other hand, I have family who is living on the lower end of the spectrum.

Anyway, all that aside - I agree with RonJ's stance. I wouldn't care about people doing unhealthy things if it in no way affected others. However, it does. I won't recite Ron's post, but this is how I feel about it. Not only that, but it affects our national image as well. It's bad enough that our country is viewed as a bunch of lazy fat asses who get whatever they want.

 

[joe7987]

I love these kinds of story games. Here's mine.


Ashley's reply to Grandpa:

I understand your decision. I should never have expected so much financial support from you. It was very immature on my part, and your letter has made me a better person. I will now find part time employment to help pay for rent on a more modest apartment and for my college tuition. But Grandpa, with all due respect, please understand that, in actuality, the previous Bush administration rather than the Obama administration is entirely responsible for all of your current financial woes. Bush's cronies allowed Wall Street to steal all of your hard earned savings and failed to take action on controlling the rapidly rising costs of health care. Bush also squandered much of your money on an unjustified war, when he should have been focused on the terrorists responsible for the 911 attack.

I hope you can see the truth.

Good luck Grandpa.

Love, Ashley

----------------------------------

Grandpa's reply to Ashley:

I did more reading on what you claimed about the Bush administration. You were completely right. I was listening to the wrong television news station. It turned out that they lied to me. I hope you can forgive me.

Love, Grandpa
--------------------------------------

Ashley's reply to Grandpa:

Don't worry Grandpa. Everyone makes mistakes. By the way, I just landed a high paying job that will help support you and Grandma through your hard times. I could not have done this without your supporting me through part of my College education.

Love, Ashley
--------------------------------

And they lived happily ever after...

 

[oc_civic]

I would agree if the habit ONLY affected the smoker. It clearly does not. The habit affects the health of people (indirect smoke) who live with the smoker, and the family and/or taxpayers bear the cost burden of health care when smokers develop severe lung diseases, such emphysema and cancer, which occur at high frequency in smokers.

only when the government gets involved in s**t that is none of their business... such as health care..

Given that the majority of Americans support Health Care Reform, perhaps you are the one who should be looking into moving to another country.

the majority of americans (MYSELF INCLUDED) support health care reform.. just not THIS reform.. as i have said time and time again..

"this road has TONS of potholes and really f**ks up my tires!!!!"
"ok no problem we will just make tires cheaper"

umm.. yeah ok.. you could do that.. OR you could just fix the road..

 

[RonJ]

the majority of americans (MYSELF INCLUDED) support health care reform.. just not THIS reform.. as i have said time and time again..

So what plan do you or the Republicans have that achieves the goals set forth by the President and the American people? The problem is that ONLY the Obama administration has come up with a workable plan while you and the Republicans just shout no. You need to participate in the process rather than just shooting down ideas.

 

[oc_civic]

The story is a fictional account based on a possible true story meant to appeal to the emotions rather than logic. Does nothing for me. And I'm with Jason. If you invest properly, you'll be fine. My parents aren't living off of a 40k a year income. They're closer to the 200k bracket. I know exactly how the economy / government is effecting them, as I am directly affected by it. We don't keep things like that secret in the family. If we're going through a tough time, we're going through a tough time, and vice versa. So if you're thinking that I'm simply ignorant of what people in the middle upper class / upper class income bracket are going through, this is not the case. On the other hand, I have family who is living on the lower end of the spectrum.

Anyway, all that aside - I agree with RonJ's stance. I wouldn't care about people doing unhealthy things if it in no way affected others. However, it does. I won't recite Ron's post, but this is how I feel about it. Not only that, but it affects our national image as well. It's bad enough that our country is viewed as a bunch of lazy fat asses who get whatever they want.

car accidents injure and kill TONS of people per year...
we would be FAR safer if we removed cars and replaced them with bikes...
it would ALSO be better for the environment..

and for SOME people that might be a good fair idea... but its f**ked up to FORCE the rest of us into something we do not want simply in the name of the greater good..

all of this greater good nonsense ignores one thing.. and that is the fundamental principles by which this country was founded.. the people who founded this nation declared independence from a LARGE government machine.. they established this nation based on a very minimal amount of law needed to run it smoothly.... and yes with time things change and laws need to be adjusted.. but the CONCEPT was a nation free from intrusive government..

is FORCING someone to join a special group by demanding PREPAYMENT for medical service prior to those services being rendered based SOLELY on the assumption that they will be needed at some point or another intrusive? because i find that notion intrusive..

WE the government on this day..
have decided that you will now PAY monthly for this voucher...
this voucher is good to help minimize the cost you incur IF you get sick..

but what if i dont get sick? what if i dont need it?
oh.. you will..

like wtf? how is that NOT intrusive.. how is that NOT over the top... its nuts..

 

[Hecz]

so, Oc. as a freedom fighter, where do you see yourself in 2014?

why am i calling you a freedom fighter? because through out your post you keep saying talking about how the gov is taking our rights and freedom.

this shouldn't be a surprise man.. it's going to continue this way until the people over through it's government.

 

[Voltio]

So what plan do you or the Republicans have that achieves the goals set forth by the President and the HIS people? The problem is that the Obama administration has come up with a bogus plan while the people and the Republicans just shout no. You were not allowed to participate in the process and were ignored when the people tried to shoot it down.

FIFY

 

[Voltio]

so, Oc. as a freedom fighter, where do you see yourself in 2014?

Probably in the United Socialist Republic of America

 

[Hecz]

also

you also keep saying "force" us into doing somethng we don't want.

lol, the people of this nation are always being forced to do things, always.

they are very tricky though, some times they paint it so that we don't see it as a "force"

 

[oc_civic]

So what plan do you or the Republicans have that achieves the goals set forth by the President and the American people? The problem is that ONLY the Obama administration has come up with a workable plan while you and the Republicans just shout no. You need to participate in the process rather than just shooting down ideas.

am i a republican.. NO so why the hell would i have any idea what they want or what they do..

this narrow minded "the republicans are wrong" "no the democrats are wrong" is why we are where we are today.. the answer is NOT "let the medical industry be a machine and charge as much as they possibly can" (R View) but it is ALSO NOT "give everything away.. free housing for all.. free health care for all.. yay yay!!!" (D View) the reality is the FIX is somewhere in the middle.. the health insurance industry has failed and the health care industry is ungodly crooked.. THIS is where the change needs to occur.. FORCING people to BUY into a f**ked up broken system is NOT the answer.. you say oh thats another part of the bill.. and i say FIX IT before you FORCE me to buy into it.. and if you really can fix it.. then you wont NEED to force me into buying insurance..

YEARS ago we decided that people could not plan for retirement themselves, could not manage money well.. so we decided that we would manage money for them so when they retire the money is there... social security.. seemed like an EXCELLENT idea at the time.. till YEARS later and it costs us a FORTUNE..... they have already illustrated that they can not manage s**t..

so why put anything else on the table when they can't even manage whats in front of them..

 

[Hecz]

just keep your head up man. keep being successful and have something to fall back on if worse comes to worse.

 

[oc_civic]

also

you also keep saying "force" us into doing somethng we don't want.

lol, the people of this nation are always being forced to do things, always.

they are very tricky though, some times they paint it so that we don't see it as a "force"

to this day my rights have been the same as long as i have been a participating member of the USA.... i was born with rights to say what i feel... own a gun.. spend my money as i see fit.. and so on... so no one has forced me to do anything.. i pay taxes but i have done that my whole life and fighting the whole fraudulent tax system is something i can not even begin to understand and or face...

this latest bullshit is FAR TOO in your face to ignore..

here buy this in case you get sick..
no thank you i dont want that..
just buy it in case you get sick.. it will help make it cheaper for others..
no really i dont want it thanks..
I SAID BUY THIS HEALTH INSURANCE or else!
no.. thanks...
BUY IT OR WE ARE GOING TO FINE YOU...
wtf?

everyone says there is no precedent being set.. i see a HUGE one.. we decided you need this.. you dont want it.. so we are going to fine you till you buy it.. how the f**k is that even legal.....

 

[DRISSN]

how the f**k is that even legal.....

x2

 

[Hecz]

everyone says there is no precedent being set.. i see a HUGE one.. we decided you need this.. you dont want it.. so we are going to fine you till you buy it.. how the f**k is that even legal.....

It's legal because they who control us say it's the law.

 

[DRISSN]

why does the government have to get involved in everything now? correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't this country founded on the exact opposite principle? you know, like, minimal governmental control?

 

[RonJ]

am i a republican.. NO so why the hell would i have any idea what they want or what they do..

I never said you were a Republican. I lump you together because all you or the Republicans say is NO or FIX IT, while you guys have no workable plan that focuses on the problem. And yes, the current Bill contains elements that attempt to reform the insurance and health care industries.

YEARS ago we decided that people could not plan for retirement themselves, could not manage money well.. so we decided that we would manage money for them so when they retire the money is there... social security.. seemed like an EXCELLENT idea at the time.. till YEARS later and it costs us a FORTUNE..... they have already illustrated that they can not manage s**t..

Yes, it's no secret that the social security system is broken, but that's a separate issue and another battle.

so why put anything else on the table when they can't even manage whats in front of them..

This I-give-up attitude never solves problems.

 

[oc_civic]

I never said you were a Republican. I lump you together because all you or the Republicans say is NO or FIX IT, while you guys have no workable plan that focuses on the problem. And yes, the current Bill contains elements that attempt to reform the insurance and health care industries.

the answer is to regulate those businesses in ways that eliminate gouging, and or improper practices.... the method of doing this is beyond me as I am not a member of government.. but the first OBVIOUS answer is to set into place fair practice laws that address things such as the gross overcharging by the health care industry for common low cost goods..

Yes, it's no secret that the social security system is broken, but that's a separate issue and another battle.
This I-give-up attitude never solves problems.

it is NOT a separate battle.. it ILLUSTRATES the governments lack of ability to manage.. \

allow me to ask you..
You allow your teenage girl out till 10pm...
She comes home at 1am drunk illustrating that she can not handle that responsibility...
When she asks for the car keys that weekend do you?
a) explain that she has not handled well the limited responsibility she has been given and tell her she is not going anywhere?
or
b) chalk it up as a learning experience and give her the keys hoping that somehow MORE responsibility somehow makes her do a better job?

you have an employee working for you.. his job is to take the trash out..
at first he did a great job but in recent weeks trash has been piling up everywhere...
when you confront him he says listen i know i did bad with the trash but you should let me do bank deposits as well for you!
what do you do..
a) figure well f**k what can it hurt.. give him a try managing the money.. he did a s**t job at the trash but maybe something more complicated will spark his interest...
or
b) tell him "look handle the responsibility that you have.. prove that you can get the job done.. and when you do i would be glad to invest more faith in you and help me take care of more s**t"

get it? the present state of our government is a cluster f**k...
obama has done NOTHING to address all the s**t that is already f**ked up....
he wants US the American tax payer to invest MORE faith.. MORE money.. into the federal government and simply HOPE he does things well..
i say BULLSHIT..
fix some of the problems that are already there.. SHOW me that you know wtf you are doing.. and then ASK me if i would like to be part of your health care plan...

make any sense?

 

[joe7987]

it is NOT a separate battle.. it ILLUSTRATES the governments lack of ability to manage.. \

allow me to ask you..
You allow your teenage girl out till 10pm...
She comes home at 1am drunk illustrating that she can not handle that responsibility...
When she asks for the car keys that weekend do you?
a) explain that she has not handled well the limited responsibility she has been given and tell her she is not going anywhere?
or
b) chalk it up as a learning experience and give her the keys hoping that somehow MORE responsibility somehow makes her do a better job?



make any sense?

This isn't what you're talking about though. What you're talking about is this:
c) explain that she has not handled well the limited responsibility she has been given and tell her she will never leave the house ever again, nor ever have possession of the car keys.

Is this rational?

Your example illustrates a single mistake. Yes, the government has made more than one mistake (what government hasn't?... what person hasn't?), but it doesn't mean we never allow the government to do anything ever again. No, a government is not perfect, but I feel that it's way better than having everybody run around doing whatever they want.

But now I'm leading us back into an old debate that we had already in the past, so I'll stop this post here.

 

[Voltio]

It's unconstitutional, but then again, our president thinks the constitution is fundamentally flawed

 

[oc_civic]

Your example illustrates a single mistake. Yes, the government has made more than one mistake (what government hasn't?... what person hasn't?), but it doesn't mean we never allow the government to do anything ever again. No, a government is not perfect, but I feel that it's way better than having everybody run around doing whatever they want.

But now I'm leading us back into an old debate that we had already in the past, so I'll stop this post here.

this is turning into a thread in which words are being placed in my mouth..

i NEVER said NEVER give the government more responsibility..

i personally prefer LESS government BUT more importantly.. i said the government f**ks everything up so why give them health care as well..

the point being... PROVE you can handle s**t and THEN ask us if we want you to run health care first..

but no.. you TRUST this guy who has been in office over a year and has honestly done next to nothing..

you have not even read the bill in its entirety you so wholeheartedly support.. how can you be SURE there is no poor spending in it.. how can you be SURE it addresses the s**t system we have now... and so on.. you cant.. you TRUST the news you see.. and the internet cliff notes..