Health Care Reform

[Voltio]

Why place so much value on polls? The most important statistics are that Obama won the presidency on the health care platform and the Bill passed in the House. Did you miss it?

Last I checked polls are representations of what people think/feel on a particular matter, and this country is run by the people. Politicians are in office to represent the people, not the other way around. The FACT is that this BS bill was shoved down everyones throat with complete disregard to what the PEOPLE wanted.

 

[RonJ]

Last I checked polls are representations of what people think/feel on a particular matter, and this country is run by the people. Politicians are in office to represent the people, not the other way around. The FACT is that this BS bill was shoved down everyones throat with complete disregard to what the PEOPLE wanted.

As you know, different polls on the same issue can contradict one another and the results also can be fleeting. I only place value in independent polls that agree and that get similar results over an extended period of time.

 

[oc_civic]

Why place so much value on polls? The most important statistics are that Obama won the presidency on the health care platform and the Bill passed in the House. Did you miss it?

because it shows that YES people wanted "change".. so they voted for him.. but NOW the polls say ok.. yeah we wanted "change" but this is NOT what we had in mind... and you know what the gov says? yeah too bad..

Incredibly incorrect as will be proven come November. 34 democrats didn't vote for it, recognizing that their voters would oust them if they did.

The last Rasmussen poll showed that 54% of Americans did NOT approve of health care reform as the Dems had penned it. Only 41% of those polled approved of it.

America didn't want it. It was forced on us.

yup i saw those same figures..

 

[RonJ]

because it shows that YES people wanted "change".. so they voted for him.. but NOW the polls say ok.. yeah we wanted "change" but this is NOT what we had in mind... and you know what the gov says? yeah too bad..

Again, the ultimate poll is votes. As you know, the results of polls can fluctuate over short periods of time. It could be that the mentioned poll will yield a sustained result, which could and should influence votes. We need to wait and see.

 

[Voltio]

Again, the ultimate poll is votes. As you know, the results of polls can fluctuate over short periods of time. It could be that the mentioned poll will yield a sustained result, which could and should influence votes. We need to wait and see.

Yeah, just like Pelosi said, let's pass this thing so that the American people can see what's in it
Obama is a great BS artist. He gives great speeches, knows how to get the crowd going. But as it has become evident, he's full of smoke.There is no real change, no real transperancy. The backroom deals are still happening. This bill is evidence of that.
I think the Massachusetts election was a pretty big sign that people were fed up with the BS change that Obama has in mind. The fact that the democrats still think they know what's best and go ahead with something that the people don't want will only signal their doom. Wait until November comes around, we'll see what the people really want then

 

[joe7987]

All I know is that I wasn't quizzed in that poll... were any of you?

Unless a poll is given to every person in the united states, it relies on assumption to draw its final conclusions. Assumption that the particular population that was actually polled is representative of the population in its entirety. As a science major, I know how very easily this can be purposely or accidentally skewed. I don't put a whole lot of stock on polls of opinion unless everybody is given the vote... as is true in elections. Obama was elected, and it was very clear that he had ideas to reform health care. The congress members who voted yes on the healthcare bill were elected by the people as their representatives. To me, this shows more representation than a poll of a select population.

Regardless, I'm incredibly satisfied with this new bill, and I have high hopes for its progress.

 

[LowNotSlow]

Well Joe, given your opinion, not everybody votes therefore representation doesn't apply to all of America

 

[joe7987]

Well Joe, given your opinion, not everybody votes therefore representation doesn't apply to all of America

And those who choose not to vote do not deserve to have their thoughts / situations taken into account, imo of course.

 

[Mr. Jollypants]

I agree with Joe. Joe for President.

 

[joe7987]

I agree with Joe. Joe for President.

 

[Mr. Jollypants]

Polls can be adjusted any way they want.

 

[LowNotSlow]

Any science major would recognize the importance of taking a random sample population as a representation of the whole. That's how science works. You can't test everybody in America for colon cancer so you test a random sample and extrapolate. You don't hear people saying "Well we didn't test everybody for colon cancer, therefore the results are bunk."

Why? Because it's unrealistic.

I challenge anybody to find a poll taken by a major polling company in the last 3 months that shows people being positive about the current legislation. These companies make money off polling and selling results, they don't go around f**king with results because it wouldn't benefit them one way or another. If anything a company would stand to make more money by saying that more Americans were FOR the current legislation, that would stand out wouldn't it. They're certainly not standing out when their results are the same as every other poll taker has.

Even just polling the comments made here would show a slant against the legislation.

 

[RonJ]

I challenge anybody to find a poll taken by a major polling company in the last 3 months that shows people being positive about the current legislation.

This poll analysis dated March 22, 2010 shows that 46% of Americans either support the current bill or want it even stronger (opposite of Republican Party's position) and that only 35% of Americans are opposed to the bill because they believe it goes too far (in line with the Republican Party's position). This analysis shows that a landslide majority of the American people actually favor health care reform. "Polls are representations of what people think/feel on a particular matter", right?

 

[RonJ]

Incredibly incorrect as will be proven come November. 34 democrats didn't vote for it, recognizing that their voters would oust them if they did.

The last Rasmussen poll showed that 54% of Americans did NOT approve of health care reform as the Dems had penned it. Only 41% of those polled approved of it.

America didn't want it. It was forced on us.

Yeah, just like Pelosi said, let's pass this thing so that the American people can see what's in it
Obama is a great BS artist. He gives great speeches, knows how to get the crowd going. But as it has become evident, he's full of smoke.There is no real change, no real transperancy. The backroom deals are still happening. This bill is evidence of that.
I think the Massachusetts election was a pretty big sign that people were fed up with the BS change that Obama has in mind. The fact that the democrats still think they know what's best and go ahead with something that the people don't want will only signal their doom. Wait until November comes around, we'll see what the people really want then

Contrary to your doomsday predictions, this recent NYT article reports that support for the Health Care Reform Bill and the Democratic party are actually on the rise whereas support for the Republican party (party of no) is in decline. This poll-based trend must be devastating for Voltio, OC, and Low who place so much emphasis on polls, right?

 

[LowNotSlow]

Contrary to your doomsday predictions, this recent NYT article reports that support for the Health Care Reform Bill and the Democratic party are actually on the rise whereas support for the Republican party (party of no) is in decline. This poll-based trend must be devastating for Voltio, OC, and Low who place so much emphasis on polls, right?

Where's the poll? Also, that's an op-ed column, not an article, which means it's opinion. There's an important difference.



Basic reading says that 34% of those polled support the bill. This poll is also from November. If you look at what I wrote about current polling I flat out said "54% of Americans did NOT approve of healthcare reform as the Dems had penned it."

I did not say America doesn't want reform, that's plainly false. What we don't want is a rushed piece of garbage that hasn't been thought through and gets forced down our throats. There's an important difference.

PS> The NY Times is open in the fact that they lean far left, I've talked to the publisher and he openly admits it. It would be like me siting a FOX news op-ed piece, no s**t it's going to be slanted.

 

[joe7987]

These companies make money off polling and selling results, they don't go around f**king with results because it wouldn't benefit them one way or another.

Money is benefit, and so is propogation of information that leads to personal gain... such as results that lead people to believe that your ideals are what most people agree with... and for that reason, you should probably agree with them too or you're a statistical outlier (aka reject, loser, f**ktard, or just plain stupid.)

If you thoroughly read my post, I also mentioned that data is easily ACCIDENTALLY skewed. This happens through such subtleties as failure to take a true random sample, suggestive wording of the question / answer choices, etc.

This happens all the time in non-opinionated / scientific research so there can be little doubt that it happens in more passionate / less objective polling.

 

[LowNotSlow]

Money is benefit, and so is propogation of information that leads to personal gain... such as results that lead people to believe that your ideals are what most people agree with... and for that reason, you should probably agree with them too or you're a statistical outlier (aka reject, loser, f**ktard, or just plain stupid.)

If you thoroughly read my post, I also mentioned that data is easily ACCIDENTALLY skewed. This happens through such subtleties as failure to take a true random sample, suggestive wording of the question / answer choices, etc.

This happens all the time in non-opinionated / scientific research so there can be little doubt that it happens in more passionate / less objective polling.

Joe, every poll shows the same trending. It's not one company screwing up. It's a month-by-month trend. And since the phone systems they use in polling are completely automated to dial a random number I would find it hard to believe that it's getting slanted that way.

 

[joe7987]

Joe, every poll shows the same trending. It's not one company screwing up. It's a month-by-month trend. And since the phone systems they use in polling are completely automated to dial a random number I would find it hard to believe that it's getting slanted that way.

As a simple example as to how this could mess up results (i'm not saying this is what is happening, this is a mere example of how things could possibly be skewed) - It is possible that the personality of a person who would support a particular issue, is the same personality that hates receiving automated phone calls and hangs up immediately, even before hearing what the phone call is about. In this case, these opinions would never be counted in the national poll. The results would come out showing that the people are not support in the of the particular issue because those people didn't mind receiving automated phone calls and stayed on the phone long enough to give their opinion.

Another example, people who support the particular issue are more likely to work jobs that require them to be working during the hours of polling phone calls. They never even get the call, and thus their vote is not counted.

These are just some of the accidents that can happen. This doesn't even begin to touch on corrupt corrupt workers who may have skewed things in other ways. Are you starting to see why I don't put much stock in polls?

 

[Voltio]

Contrary to your doomsday predictions, this recent NYT article reports that support for the Health Care Reform Bill and the Democratic party are actually on the rise whereas support for the Republican party (party of no) is in decline. This poll-based trend must be devastating for Voltio, OC, and Low who place so much emphasis on polls, right?

Where's the poll? Also, that's an op-ed column, not an article, which means it's opinion. There's an important difference.



Basic reading says that 34% of those polled support the bill. This poll is also from November. If you look at what I wrote about current polling I flat out said "54% of Americans did NOT approve of healthcare reform as the Dems had penned it."

I did not say America doesn't want reform, that's plainly false. What we don't want is a rushed piece of garbage that hasn't been thought through and gets forced down our throats. There's an important difference.

PS> The NY Times is open in the fact that they lean far left, I've talked to the publisher and he openly admits it. It would be like me siting a FOX news op-ed piece, no s**t it's going to be slanted.

 

[LowNotSlow]

As a simple example as to how this could mess up results (i'm not saying this is what is happening, this is a mere example of how things could possibly be skewed) - It is possible that the personality of a person who would support a particular issue, is the same personality that hates receiving automated phone calls and hangs up immediately, even before hearing what the phone call is about. In this case, these opinions would never be counted in the national poll. The results would come out showing that the people are not support in the of the particular issue because those people didn't mind receiving automated phone calls and stayed on the phone long enough to give their opinion.

Another example, people who support the particular issue are more likely to work jobs that require them to be working during the hours of polling phone calls. They never even get the call, and thus their vote is not counted.

These are just some of the accidents that can happen. This doesn't even begin to touch on corrupt corrupt workers who may have skewed things in other ways. Are you starting to see why I don't put much stock in polls?

I get where you're coming from but I think you overemphasize your points.

The calls come during evening hours btw, I've participated in a couple polls during election years.

It should be noted that I am PRO reform, just not PRO this bill, which I consider hackneyed at best.