Supercharged or Turboed?
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Sorry, i interpreted your words wrong, i didnt not try to put words in your mouth sorry.4sdB18Csedan said:
Lag is going to be an issue weather you feel it or not, go check out a dyno curve on an stock engine and on the same engine turboed, the HP and TQ will be lower from the start beacuse of the restriction of the turbo and then the numbers are going to fly up beacuse the turbo spooling up. Lag isnt always strong or felt, but its always there4sdB18Csedan said:
While we are talking about two different engines, so far I have found it cheaper and easier to go with a super charger for my car. Here is some info on your questions straight from Jackson Racing. I hope this helps.
Q: How does the Supercharger compare to a Turbo system and does it need an intercooler?
A: Jackson Racing has been in business for over 25 years doing high performance Honda/Acura tuning and we speak with some sort of authority on the subject of Turbo vs Supercharged Vs Intercooling. Having built turbo Hondas since 1976, the first turbo/intercooled CRX's in 1984, and having run the first turbo/intercooled Honda at the first Battle of the Imports in 1990, we do have experience with all of the above issues and can speak, without bias, having done so. And, having seen first hand the long term effects of turbochargers on daily driven high compression Honda/Acura engines, we have opted to supercharge the future.
For ease of installation, instant power, and low cost, nitrous is the only way to fly. However, that is if you only want to go drag racing. If you want everyday nitrous type power, you have to go to forced induction. That is where the turbo Vs supercharger debate comes in. For absolute peak power where driveability, turbo lag, emissions, and long engine life does not need to be taken into consideration, turbo is the only way to go. But, with all things in this life, there is no free ride. With a properly designed turbo charger system you have the ability to produce huge amounts of boost and horsepower easily. The problem with that amount of boost is that once the turbo spools, it goes to full boost. There is no linear delivery of boost.
Consequently, if the turbo spools at 3000 rpm, you have full boost at a valve speed that is very slow. So, the turbo has lots of time to create cylinder pressure on the rods and pistons because of the very long time that the valve is open. This, in turn, is what creates that huge rush of power when the turbo spools. This is also what causes so many turbo engine failures. Combine that with the fact that the compressor sits within 2" of a glowing 1300 degree cast iron oven, the charge air temperature is always very high. This has created the myth that anything with forced induction has to be intercooled. If you have checked the intake temperature of any of the late model O.E. manufactured intercooled turbos, at the intake manifold, not the outlet of the intercooler, you will find that the intake air temperature is near 200 degrees, even after the intercooler. As an example, a test by Sport Compact Car on a new model Turbo/intercooled German built car, they found the charge air temperature at the throttle plate to be 206 degrees after the intercooler. You see, the intercooler is a great thing as long as you have steady air flowing over it. If you are doing a lot of starts and stops, the effectiveness of the intercooler is diminished. Secondarily, once the air has been cooled, it has to be routed back to the intake manifold. That means that it has to come back into the hot engine compartment and the tubing re-heats the air. Not a lot mind you, but it still happens. Equally important, you have to fill all of that tubing with boost, then, when you shift and the bypass blows open, it empties the tubing, requiring the tubing to be refilled. This is the main cause of poor throttle response and the classic turbo lag in a intercooled turbo car. Now, keep in mind that this is all a mute point if you are at speed. But, then you have to stop. Once you stop, you have to cool the turbo. And heat, being the heart of the turbo, is also the enemy of the engine. To further the intercooler debate, let us consider the Ford supercharged/intercooled T-Bird and the GM (Buick-Pontiac) supercharged/non intercooled cars.
The Ford uses a 90 c.i. Eaton supercharger with as much as 14 psi and an intercooler. GM uses a 62 c.i Eaton supercharger with 8 psi and no intercooler. GM mounts their supercharger "Hot Rod" style, on top of the intake manifold as close to the intake valves as possible, with no intercooler. GM's approach, it appears, is to run less boost and thereby, less discharge temperature, and mount the supercharger as close to the intake valve as possible for maximum driveability. Ford's approach seems to be to go for the maximum effect with an intercooler. But, to push the charge air all the way out to the grill, through the intercooler, and back to the intake manifold, requires a larger supercharger and large quantity of boost. Thus, the 90 c.i. supercharger on the T-Bird and the 62 c.i. Supercharger on the GM models. In the final analysis, both engines have an identical horsepower reading. I am sure you are asking yourself "How can that be?" It is in the systems efficiency.
The GM system appears to be more efficient overall. Less load from the supercharger, intercooler, and all of the related plumbing equals better throttle response and an overall better driving package. Now, I am not saying that an air to water intercooler, mounted close to the engine would not be a great piece, it is just that in some engine compartments, it is not possible to package it. So, intercooling is fine if the system is not parasitic by design with plumbing running everywhere, and the net effect of the intercooler system in day to day driving, and that is what I am speaking of, is positive.
Q: How does the Supercharger affect the engine life?
A: Because of our unique bypass valve design, engine life is not effected. Our system is so efficient and produces such useable torque, that you are rarely at full throttle for any length of time. When you are at cruise speed or idle, the bypass allows the engine to breathe normally, no boost. Only when you depress the throttle aggressively does the bypass close and you have an instant 6psi of boost. Consequently, with our unique bypass valve and reasonable boost, engine life is not effected.
Q: Do I have to maintain the Supercharger after it's installed?
A: No, unlike a turbo that requires cool down time, or warming up time because it is using the engines oil, the supercharger is ready to go when you are. As a matter of regular maintenance you should inspect the charger drive belt, as you should any drive belt, with every oil change.
Q: How does the Supercharger compare to a Turbo system and does it need an intercooler?
A: Jackson Racing has been in business for over 25 years doing high performance Honda/Acura tuning and we speak with some sort of authority on the subject of Turbo vs Supercharged Vs Intercooling. Having built turbo Hondas since 1976, the first turbo/intercooled CRX's in 1984, and having run the first turbo/intercooled Honda at the first Battle of the Imports in 1990, we do have experience with all of the above issues and can speak, without bias, having done so. And, having seen first hand the long term effects of turbochargers on daily driven high compression Honda/Acura engines, we have opted to supercharge the future.
For ease of installation, instant power, and low cost, nitrous is the only way to fly. However, that is if you only want to go drag racing. If you want everyday nitrous type power, you have to go to forced induction. That is where the turbo Vs supercharger debate comes in. For absolute peak power where driveability, turbo lag, emissions, and long engine life does not need to be taken into consideration, turbo is the only way to go. But, with all things in this life, there is no free ride. With a properly designed turbo charger system you have the ability to produce huge amounts of boost and horsepower easily. The problem with that amount of boost is that once the turbo spools, it goes to full boost. There is no linear delivery of boost.
Consequently, if the turbo spools at 3000 rpm, you have full boost at a valve speed that is very slow. So, the turbo has lots of time to create cylinder pressure on the rods and pistons because of the very long time that the valve is open. This, in turn, is what creates that huge rush of power when the turbo spools. This is also what causes so many turbo engine failures. Combine that with the fact that the compressor sits within 2" of a glowing 1300 degree cast iron oven, the charge air temperature is always very high. This has created the myth that anything with forced induction has to be intercooled. If you have checked the intake temperature of any of the late model O.E. manufactured intercooled turbos, at the intake manifold, not the outlet of the intercooler, you will find that the intake air temperature is near 200 degrees, even after the intercooler. As an example, a test by Sport Compact Car on a new model Turbo/intercooled German built car, they found the charge air temperature at the throttle plate to be 206 degrees after the intercooler. You see, the intercooler is a great thing as long as you have steady air flowing over it. If you are doing a lot of starts and stops, the effectiveness of the intercooler is diminished. Secondarily, once the air has been cooled, it has to be routed back to the intake manifold. That means that it has to come back into the hot engine compartment and the tubing re-heats the air. Not a lot mind you, but it still happens. Equally important, you have to fill all of that tubing with boost, then, when you shift and the bypass blows open, it empties the tubing, requiring the tubing to be refilled. This is the main cause of poor throttle response and the classic turbo lag in a intercooled turbo car. Now, keep in mind that this is all a mute point if you are at speed. But, then you have to stop. Once you stop, you have to cool the turbo. And heat, being the heart of the turbo, is also the enemy of the engine. To further the intercooler debate, let us consider the Ford supercharged/intercooled T-Bird and the GM (Buick-Pontiac) supercharged/non intercooled cars.
The Ford uses a 90 c.i. Eaton supercharger with as much as 14 psi and an intercooler. GM uses a 62 c.i Eaton supercharger with 8 psi and no intercooler. GM mounts their supercharger "Hot Rod" style, on top of the intake manifold as close to the intake valves as possible, with no intercooler. GM's approach, it appears, is to run less boost and thereby, less discharge temperature, and mount the supercharger as close to the intake valve as possible for maximum driveability. Ford's approach seems to be to go for the maximum effect with an intercooler. But, to push the charge air all the way out to the grill, through the intercooler, and back to the intake manifold, requires a larger supercharger and large quantity of boost. Thus, the 90 c.i. supercharger on the T-Bird and the 62 c.i. Supercharger on the GM models. In the final analysis, both engines have an identical horsepower reading. I am sure you are asking yourself "How can that be?" It is in the systems efficiency.
The GM system appears to be more efficient overall. Less load from the supercharger, intercooler, and all of the related plumbing equals better throttle response and an overall better driving package. Now, I am not saying that an air to water intercooler, mounted close to the engine would not be a great piece, it is just that in some engine compartments, it is not possible to package it. So, intercooling is fine if the system is not parasitic by design with plumbing running everywhere, and the net effect of the intercooler system in day to day driving, and that is what I am speaking of, is positive.
Q: How does the Supercharger affect the engine life?
A: Because of our unique bypass valve design, engine life is not effected. Our system is so efficient and produces such useable torque, that you are rarely at full throttle for any length of time. When you are at cruise speed or idle, the bypass allows the engine to breathe normally, no boost. Only when you depress the throttle aggressively does the bypass close and you have an instant 6psi of boost. Consequently, with our unique bypass valve and reasonable boost, engine life is not effected.
Q: Do I have to maintain the Supercharger after it's installed?
A: No, unlike a turbo that requires cool down time, or warming up time because it is using the engines oil, the supercharger is ready to go when you are. As a matter of regular maintenance you should inspect the charger drive belt, as you should any drive belt, with every oil change.
the s/c itself is ass raping expensive. I've also heard that boost from a s/c isn't as consistant as the boost produced from a turboLike I said, it is cheaper for my 05 Si. Jackson Racing Street Legal Super Charger $ 2,195. Greddy Street Legal Turbo $ 3,449. These are the MSRP's listed on both of their web sites.4sdB18Csedan said:
In a nut shell the stuff from Jackson says that the super charger is more practical for daily driving and not as hard on your motor while admitting that turbo's have the potential for more top end power.
I believe they were talking bout home made turbo kits though...
greddy kit is way overrated imo..
you could have a complete kit almost a good as greddy if not better for ~1200-1500
so with that said, turbo > supercharger
greddy kit is way overrated imo..
you could have a complete kit almost a good as greddy if not better for ~1200-1500
so with that said, turbo > supercharger
Shiznit
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the greddy kit isnt overrated its over priced. thats why everyone hates it. its a really good turbo kit. this turbo kit vs supercharger argument is just about the same argument as vtec vs non vtec. everyone is going to have their opinions. and theres a bunch of false information being tossed around in this thread
and noone will ever accept other people once they have their own....thas why i just dropped it and let this thread go. No matter how much i argued. I was never saying the the SC was better, just another acceptable form of making powerShiznit said:
The problem is that everybody always focuses on peak horsepower. The turbo is going to win on peak numbers virtually everytime. But you gotta spool up to get those numbers.
For instance, the lag addled Mustang SVO:
1986 = 0-60 in 6.9 seconds, standing quarter mile in 15.3 seconds
It does post 200 hp out of the 2.3 Lima motor that in it's carbureted form barely made 80 hp but it always had lag problems.
BUT,
That's Prelude or Integra GS-R times...In fact many publications put the 'teg or 'lude a bit quicker than that. N/A of course.
But I digress...
anyway, my point before I got sidetracked by *gasp god forbid...praising Honda...
was that the turbo is going to post better peak numbers. But just check out the power output on a Roots type supercharger at about 1500-2000 rpm in comparison to the turbo. A supercharger can make a very nice street car. If you're in fourth exiting a corner and need to be in third it's not a problem with a supercharger.
For instance, the lag addled Mustang SVO:
1986 = 0-60 in 6.9 seconds, standing quarter mile in 15.3 seconds
It does post 200 hp out of the 2.3 Lima motor that in it's carbureted form barely made 80 hp but it always had lag problems.
BUT,
That's Prelude or Integra GS-R times...In fact many publications put the 'teg or 'lude a bit quicker than that. N/A of course.
But I digress...
anyway, my point before I got sidetracked by *gasp god forbid...praising Honda...
was that the turbo is going to post better peak numbers. But just check out the power output on a Roots type supercharger at about 1500-2000 rpm in comparison to the turbo. A supercharger can make a very nice street car. If you're in fourth exiting a corner and need to be in third it's not a problem with a supercharger.
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Sorry to beat a dead horse so to speak, but I just read about an electric s/c from e-RAM. It just bolts in line with the intake, between the air box and mani. Sounds pretty intresting and only costs $600. Only bad thing I can see is it drains a lot of load from the batt.
Anyone have one of these things or know someone with one?
Curious,
John
Edit:
Forgot to mention there are two models. One adds 1psi boost and the other 1.7psi. Nothing heavy, but it is electric.
Anyone have one of these things or know someone with one?
Curious,
John
Edit:
Forgot to mention there are two models. One adds 1psi boost and the other 1.7psi. Nothing heavy, but it is electric.
you can get those for like $20
the motor hooks up to your blinker solonoid module wich runs off the blinker motor so when you hit your flashers you get boost. Be careful tho, you have to make sure you have enough blinker fluid. Not to mention that if you turn your flashers on for the boost and you still loose, you'll look like a flufftard. It's happened to me a few timesJGulyas said:
Dude,bizoneoeh said:the motor hooks up to your blinker solonoid module wich runs off the blinker motor so when you hit your flashers you get boost. Be careful tho, you have to make sure you have enough blinker fluid. Not to mention that if you turn your flashers on for the boost and you still loose, you'll look like a flufftard. It's happened to me a few times
Why do you want to be like that? I'm not a damn fluffer that doesn't know s**t about an internal combustion engine. So I don't know about Honda blocks, no biggie. That doesn't mean you need to be an ass and try to feed me with a load of crap. (Blinker solonoid module; blinker fluid) WTF? I would have expected that from a kid, not from someone your age. By the way, is your s/c set-up a heater blower? Looks that way at least.
Does anyone have anything useful about this?
easy dude.io_303 said:
goddammn dawg, chill the f**k out and figure out how to take a joke. If you know about combustion engines then you'll know that those electric superchargers are s**t. If you noticed my aged then speak to me as if I was your papi, you never knowJGulyas said:
no need to get all but hurt. It doesn't take a rocket scientest to figure out how a electric sc works.btw, since I butt hurt you a lil here's a real pic of my engine bay...........friends
joO make me cry
but in all seriousness, I'm sory if I got you mad, I didn't mean too. I didn't call you a flufftard either
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