no its not that, i'm just trying comprise everything into my post, instead of searching all over and reading over a thousand posts and forgetting everything, i figured it'd be easier to have everything in one post, sorry no need to flip
Turbo or supercharger?
- Thread starter sboutin
- Start date
sigh.. once again its up to me to clear out the complete bullshit and misinformation in this thread. first- vortech makes superchargers. vortec is a type of chevy engine. ecotec is NOT like vtec, ecotec is simply a name. gm tried to copy the vtec mechanism, but failed miserably. their name for it was ecotec. they trashed the project, but kept the name for their new line of regular 4 cyl engines.
second, there are 2 basic types of supercharger kits available. first is the vortech or centrithical supercharger. it works basically as a belt driven turbo. air is inducted into the center of the turbine wheel, and by centrithical force is spun out to the charge piping. for an illustration of this, see my bottom attachment. the vortech makes its power with rpm, as boost builds linearly as rpm increases. basically it doesnt change the look of a dyno graph, it simply enhances it.
the jackson racing, roots type, or positive displacement supercharger has 2 rotors that spin in oppsite directions. these rotors pressurize the air and force it into the intake manifold (usually integrated are the s/c and the intake manni) . an illustration of the jrsc can be found here http://www.jacksonracing.com/pages/howorksa.html. the jrsc enhances low end by producing lots of boost at low rpm, but it runs out of flow near the high end of the rpm range, so it gives less peak hp than either a vortech or turbo. it basically makes for an almost flat torque curve.
heres a couple of dynos for comparison. first, heres a graph of a vortech supercharged infinity g35. i know its not a honda, but it works for my purpose. notice how the shapes of the blue and red curves are almost identical, its just the red curves are higher on the graph. also notice low end torque is almost unchanged.
heres a dyno overlay of a jrsc at 7 psi and a drag gen 3 turbo kit at 7 psi, both hondata tuned, both on the same motor, tuned by the same person. now remember, the drag uses a fairly large t3/4 turbo (very laggy) and is not one of the better designed kits on the market.
so from 0-3800 rpm- advantage jrsc
3800-redline- advantage drag turbo.
with a properly sized turbo, you can probably drop 500-1000 rpm off of the jrsc's advantage. but this is concrete evidence of the differences. its up to the user to pick where they want their powerband. vortech will look something like the latter half of the turbos graph, but it will peak at lower hp numbers. the jrsc peaks much lower, but has more low end torque. a properly sized turbo provides full boost and good flow over a much larger rpm range than either a vortech or jrsc, and it gives the most peak hp to boot. my personal favorite is a turbo. but its your car. you be the judge.
ps. jrsc's have built in bypass valves. vortech's do benefit from a blow off valve though. vortech does not make a d series kit, only b series. jrsc has kits for both.
second, there are 2 basic types of supercharger kits available. first is the vortech or centrithical supercharger. it works basically as a belt driven turbo. air is inducted into the center of the turbine wheel, and by centrithical force is spun out to the charge piping. for an illustration of this, see my bottom attachment. the vortech makes its power with rpm, as boost builds linearly as rpm increases. basically it doesnt change the look of a dyno graph, it simply enhances it.
the jackson racing, roots type, or positive displacement supercharger has 2 rotors that spin in oppsite directions. these rotors pressurize the air and force it into the intake manifold (usually integrated are the s/c and the intake manni) . an illustration of the jrsc can be found here http://www.jacksonracing.com/pages/howorksa.html. the jrsc enhances low end by producing lots of boost at low rpm, but it runs out of flow near the high end of the rpm range, so it gives less peak hp than either a vortech or turbo. it basically makes for an almost flat torque curve.
heres a couple of dynos for comparison. first, heres a graph of a vortech supercharged infinity g35. i know its not a honda, but it works for my purpose. notice how the shapes of the blue and red curves are almost identical, its just the red curves are higher on the graph. also notice low end torque is almost unchanged.
heres a dyno overlay of a jrsc at 7 psi and a drag gen 3 turbo kit at 7 psi, both hondata tuned, both on the same motor, tuned by the same person. now remember, the drag uses a fairly large t3/4 turbo (very laggy) and is not one of the better designed kits on the market.
so from 0-3800 rpm- advantage jrsc
3800-redline- advantage drag turbo.
with a properly sized turbo, you can probably drop 500-1000 rpm off of the jrsc's advantage. but this is concrete evidence of the differences. its up to the user to pick where they want their powerband. vortech will look something like the latter half of the turbos graph, but it will peak at lower hp numbers. the jrsc peaks much lower, but has more low end torque. a properly sized turbo provides full boost and good flow over a much larger rpm range than either a vortech or jrsc, and it gives the most peak hp to boot. my personal favorite is a turbo. but its your car. you be the judge.
ps. jrsc's have built in bypass valves. vortech's do benefit from a blow off valve though. vortech does not make a d series kit, only b series. jrsc has kits for both.
turbo. largest powerband, highest peak power.
turbos can be as reliable as a sc (assuming they are, which is not always the case). anything is reliable if you do it right, dont skimp, and keep maintence. b16 is a very very very very overrated motor. the b18 has more hp and more tq for almost the same price. Now, the b18 is a great motor to turbo charge (basicly im telling you to turbo). the turbo will give you constant power through out the rpm band. Its alot easier to raise or lower boost levels on a turbo than it is on a sc. sc wont provide as much power as a turbo will.
What Sean didn't mention is that engines that are turbocharged have a significantly shorter time before overhaul. In other words, regardless of maintenance, they succumb to heat failure and require overhaul sooner than NA or other types of FI.
The supercharger also provides full power at all power settings. In other words, you will get power at 3000 as well as 6000 rpm. Turbos will only "boost" at an RPM that is high enough to turn the turbine fast enough, and usually this is in the high end of the power band.
The supercharger also provides full power at all power settings. In other words, you will get power at 3000 as well as 6000 rpm. Turbos will only "boost" at an RPM that is high enough to turn the turbine fast enough, and usually this is in the high end of the power band.
im merging your other thread with this one, its the same s**t.
I have a 99 civic si with a vortech supercharger, and i love it. The drivability is great, but before vtec the car almost runs like stock, but once you go into vtec the power seems to come out of nowhere. I mean, there is a power gain off idle, but it doesnt really start to build boost until vtec.
handlebarsfsr, thats some great info.
personally, i am also a big fan of turbos over superchargers. i see the SCs as being less efficient than the SCs. turbos use the exhaust gases to spin the turbine, while the SC needs the belt. the belt is turned by the crank pully(right?) so it just adds more of a leeching effect to the engine. yes, yes, i know that you will say that it isnt noticeable and that the power gained will make it nonexistant....but the turbo doesnt have that. the exhaust gases that spin the turbine have to escape either way, why not have it spin a nice turbo??
thats just my opinion, i know there is alot more to it, and i dont know everthing on this matter.
hopefully i will turbo a b18c1 one day.....prolly wont be for a while thoough.
personally, i am also a big fan of turbos over superchargers. i see the SCs as being less efficient than the SCs. turbos use the exhaust gases to spin the turbine, while the SC needs the belt. the belt is turned by the crank pully(right?) so it just adds more of a leeching effect to the engine. yes, yes, i know that you will say that it isnt noticeable and that the power gained will make it nonexistant....but the turbo doesnt have that. the exhaust gases that spin the turbine have to escape either way, why not have it spin a nice turbo??
thats just my opinion, i know there is alot more to it, and i dont know everthing on this matter.
hopefully i will turbo a b18c1 one day.....prolly wont be for a while thoough.
What you are saying is right zak. The super charger will always suffer from parasitic power loss. Plus the SC can only spin as fast as the engine will spin it, and as fast as pulleys will allow.
A turbo in the other hand really has no limit as to how much boost it can provide... that is short of the turbo disintegrating... or worse, your engine. I think what's more important is the value. A custom turbo set up can be had for cheap, Im talking under 1500. Where as, as most people know, a decent SC setup simply can't be done for that kind of coin.
A turbo in the other hand really has no limit as to how much boost it can provide... that is short of the turbo disintegrating... or worse, your engine. I think what's more important is the value. A custom turbo set up can be had for cheap, Im talking under 1500. Where as, as most people know, a decent SC setup simply can't be done for that kind of coin.
No s**t but if I am going to build something with that much power I am going to do it with a turbo not a supercharger. I suggested supercharger cause without other extensive changes supercharger is better for everyday driving hence the Car and Driver term "Passing Power". My bad I'll stick to Fast and Furious vocab you use daily.
