image that i was speaking of earlier that i couldn't find a link for if anyone cares.
i hope he had his harness on.
To cage or not to cage? That is the question.
- Thread starter dnunit
- Start date
image that i was speaking of earlier that i couldn't find a link for if anyone cares.
i hope he had his harness on.
and that is showing what? you cant even see the top of the car... i showed you an image that shows you CLEARLY the interior of the car after it has been rolled.. is a roll cage, harness, etc.. the save all where you will NEVER get hurt.. no of course not.. people who drive race cars DO die.. the point is these safety items when properly used are effective..Heretic:Si said:
image that i was speaking of earlier that i couldn't find a link for if anyone cares.
i hope he had his harness on.
is that image showing a Roll bar or a HARNESS bar.. or a cage? because the image that you posted doesnt really show anything
as oc_civic said u cant tell if that car even had a cage, roll bar, or even a harness bar. all that pic shows is what looks to be a completley stock that rolled onto its top.Heretic:Si said:
image that i was speaking of earlier that i couldn't find a link for if anyone cares.
i hope he had his harness on.
One reason against the harness:
Dale Earnhardt Sr
His body was all strapped in tight and safe within it's cro-moly safety cocoon but there was nothing to keep his head from rocketing forward and separating the brain stem from the spinal column.
Then again you hit that hard in a Civic, you're pobably gonna' have a lap full of D16 under your freshly crushed legs anyway.
Dale Earnhardt Sr
His body was all strapped in tight and safe within it's cro-moly safety cocoon but there was nothing to keep his head from rocketing forward and separating the brain stem from the spinal column.
Then again you hit that hard in a Civic, you're pobably gonna' have a lap full of D16 under your freshly crushed legs anyway.
if he wasnt all nice and strapped in he more than likely would have went flying through the window bc he was restrained down good enoughBeelzebubba said:
the guy in that car died. i don't know what he had. the roof is flat on the drivers side, hence why you don't see anything. would you want to be able to slide towards the center of the car or be stuck in your seat immobile? that picture puts what i've been saying into words. you act as if your friends crash was typical or something, do you think they all end up the same? just because it worked for him doesn't mean the same for you. and to all you over acheivers, what am i suppose to use to back up what i'm saying? it's all simple scenarios, every crash is different. you could crash your car tomorrow and live and prove me wrong or die and prove me right. i'd rather be wrong. i give my opinion and back it up with basic theory and i'm an idiot based on your friends crash, thats intelligent. it's not about what flies in your window it's what you fly into, i'm not sure why that was so hard to grasp for most of you. the op wanted opinions, i gave mine based on lots of reading and other peoples opinions/experiences. i hope people search around more for themselves and don't use this thread as their only advice on whether or not to get a cage/rollbar or whatever.
ok i THINK you are confused..Heretic:Si said:
if he had a roll cage the roof would NOT be collapsed.. i think that you are arguing that a HARNESS bar is bad..
there are FULL cages (that generally have harness bars) but are also comprised of a main hoop that protects against colapse
then you have a roll bar which is the same but generally only the back portion of the car commonly found stock in jeeps (that sort of bar) ALSO has a harness bar
and then you have harness bars (like the sparco bar) which is JUST a harness bar with NO main hoop protection
the reason i think you are confused is because if you replace EVERYTHING you said about roll bars, with the word harness bar you are right.. using a harness bar without the main hoop provided by a roll cage or bar is stupid and CAN seriously get you f**ked up... if that car had a functioning cage OR roll bar.. the roof would NOT look like that..
a cage would have help keep that driver side of the car up. if ur refering to my friends accident i know they dont all end the same. how and accident happens depends on alot of things, and a roll bar, harness bar, or a cage would help brace the roof and the parts of the car surrounding you. and the op was probably wanting opinions based on facts that they know not from stories they hear/read. but hey like u said its ur opinion, u can be "safer" with ur oem belts and seatsHeretic:Si said:
Cage, harness, helmet, and HANS device, yes.oc_civic said:again remember the context of the discussion.. would earhardt have been safer without the cage and harness.. lol
But without all of those components combined, he would have been seriously injured or killed anyway.
Beelzebubba said:
but again accounting for the severity of the accident.. i even read that it is unsure that would have even saved him.. but all speculation.. as you know already..
yes you can hurt your neck with a harness.. but you can do the same with the oem seatbelts.. you know that already.. the point was having a harness cage and correct seat are NOT more dnagerous than not..
Judging from just the pictures of your car's bar, I'd guess that your neck and head will have to whip back pretty far to contact the bar. But I'm 6'3" so my seatback is already pretty close to "gangsta lean" just to be able to look through the center of the windshield. I would need a very short racing seat to keep my head away from a bar mounted around my B-pillar. 
There are drawbcks to the roll bar and harness. The benefits probably out weigh them though.
(and Melt's even taller than I am, so his seatback must be in actual "gangsta lean" mode or he just looks through his windshield tint strip all the time
)
There are drawbcks to the roll bar and harness. The benefits probably out weigh them though.
(and Melt's even taller than I am, so his seatback must be in actual "gangsta lean" mode or he just looks through his windshield tint strip all the time
)
you would <3 my recaros.. they are on wedge engineering brackets on the lowest setting.. im about the same hight and very comfy no lean.. im almost sitting on teh floor..and yeah my neck and head are pretty far from the bar.. some racing venues actually check that as being a safety requirement...Beelzebubba said:Judging from just the pictures of your car's bar, I'd guess that your neck and head will have to whip back pretty far to contact the bar. But I'm 6'3" so my seatback is already pretty close to "gangsta lean" just to be able to look through the center of the windshield. I would need a very short racing seat to keep my head away from a bar mounted around my B-pillar.
There are drawbcks to the roll bar and harness. The benefits probably out weigh them though.
(and Melt's even taller than I am, so his seatback must be in actual "gangsta lean" mode or he just looks through his windshield tint strip all the time
I'm not exactly sure why you're comparing the two.dnunit said:
Airbags protect against secondary collisions... that is, a collision of yor body against somethign else inside the car.
Roll cages make sure your car doesn't squish into where you're sitting. And of course they help to keep you from being crushed in the sitting upright position if you have harnesses instead of seeatbelts. Basically if you have harnesses you want a roll cage. It's not safe without one. If you have harnesses and no roll cage, if you do roll, the roof can collapse and literally crush in on you. Meanwhile, with stock three-point-seatbelts you will lean to the side and be less likely to have such bad injuries.
Still, you should be wearing a seatbelt with either the airbags or cage (or nothing) of course, helping to protect you from hitting the roll cage (particularly your head) or from hitting your friend with your body. Keep all loose items in the trunk or glovebox to keep those things from hitting and killing you too.
Of course, none of these things should make you think, "It's okay, I can drive like this because I have this certain safety device in my car." That would be a false sense of security and is a problem that has began to arise upon having more safety devices added to vehicles from the factory (airbags, side impact airbags, ABS, etc).
Aren't there roll cages that don't inhibit getting into the car too though? I haven't done muych research at all on them since I've never planned to put them in my car. That's not the direction I'm going with my car at all, so no need to even think about them.io_303 said:
In fact, it appears oc's car is like that.
This is also one of the reasons to get proper safety belts for the other equipment in the car.burntrice16 said:
I'd actually think that the bar would be harder than the bar (not talking about the padding). I mean, you can scratch and dent pavement pretty easily. I'm not sure which might be harder upon a heavy impact though.
And people have died from ingesting too much water (which isn't from drowning). It's abotu the risk of such injury or death though. Not just that it could happen.TheWingMang said:Yeah, but someone has died from everything. I knew people who would have lived if they hadn't been wearing a seat belt. But if the cage prevents the roof from caving, and the harness holds you in pretty tight, I think that'd be about the safest set up you could have. But thats just my
Roll-overs are pretty uncommon with most collisions. Of course higher speeds and high centers of gravity increase this chance.
And regarding convertibles there are of course style bars... not very safe at all. It seems I see these more often than real roll bars on convertibles.oc_civic said:
What kind of support is in a normal a-pillar and above the windshield anyway? I mean, thinking about a safe convertible, they would usually have the normal windshield and a-pillars, no b or c-pillars, and a roll bar. Other than that, nothing else protects your head (well, to a small degree the glass and soft top/hard top can also protect yor head, but say the top is down as are the side windows).
Aren't most roof skins on cars actually more designed to protect you from the elements than from roll overs? I know Jeeps have warnings on their canopies about this. What is it that Jeeps all have stock too..? And three-point harnesses like most other vehicles sold to the general public.
That's NOT a roll bar.oc_civic said:
Please, please don't confuse the two. That's a style bar and can actually be pretty dangerous.http://www.teammiata.com/Rollbar-faqs.htm
Q) What is the difference between a style bar and a roll bar?
A) As the names implies, a style bar is just that, a bar with style. It offers minimal protection in a roll over and could in fact even lead to additional injuries. This is because style bars are generally attached very superficially at only two points (generally bolted only at the top of the seat belt tower - the Hard Bar is different, but more on that later) and most will probably break off at the attachment points and bend over, mouse trap style, if very much force is placed on it.
On the other hand a true roll bar will have additional bracing to keep it from bending over or collapsing if lateral force is applied. However, the additional bracing can make it somewhat harder to build.
Tailgating = bad. Same goes for gettign too close to trucks carrying ladders. Do you really think things like that are often properly restrained?Beelzebubba said:
All this talk of heads hitting roll bars and roll cages sure does make me glad I'm short... And that I don't usually ride in cars with roll bars... You should all stop being so tall. It's too likley you'll die. Didn't you see CSI: Miami the other night?
a cage done right. it's in Neil Tjin's R34 Skyline. if i ever cage my hatch it will be done right like this, no point in half assing it. it will be accompanied by a Bride Gardis III seat and a 6 point takata harness. then again this will be after my car has a tad more power.
in class right now (at Wyotech) we're putting a boosted B16 into a CRX with a roll cage that will tie into the front tube chassis.